Chat : 15 July 2022

16:06:30 From Frode Hegland : now not so good.
16:06:38 From Frode Hegland : name again please, bad connection
16:06:42 From Frode Hegland : thank yoiu
16:06:44 From Marc-Antoine Parent : you’re sometimes clear, sometimes not at all
16:06:48 From Frode Hegland : where are you?
16:08:14 From Betelihem Girma : Sorry my connection got a little weak, but I can everyone. Nice to meet everyone!
16:08:21 From Daveed : Betty I will do the voiceover as you share your screen because your audio is not working.
16:11:09 From Betelihem Girma : Ok, agreed
16:14:53 From Peter Wasilko : Sorry I was running a few minutes late, did I miss anything import?
16:15:27 From Frode Hegland : just glad you are here 🙂
16:29:58 From Betelihem Girma : yes
16:32:48 From Peter Wasilko : See:
16:35:46 From Brandel Zachernuk :
16:36:01 From Brandel Zachernuk : (is Bob’s book, open to chapter 7)
16:36:27 From Peter Wasilko :
16:45:16 From Peter Wasilko : Can you drop these URL’s in the chat?
16:49:18 From Patrick Lichty : Please. This is GREAT!
16:50:56 From Marc-Antoine Parent :
16:51:19 From Daveed : Bob, what is the link to your book?
16:51:44 From Brandel Zachernuk : it’s the link I put in earlier
16:52:24 From Marc-Antoine Parent : I would love to see specific ontologies; have been looking at AIF. Of course I think there has to be mappings between ontologies, just as there has to be weaving between points of views and federation between tools.
16:52:35 From Marc-Antoine Parent : some of my slides are on
16:54:10 From Brandel Zachernuk :
16:54:46 From Patrick Lichty : I completely agrreee. I found that last year.
16:57:56 From Brandel Zachernuk :
16:58:30 From alanlaidlaw : great book so far
16:58:39 From Brandel Zachernuk : (I’m really glad to hear that the formalism can be laid in progressively Marc-Antoine!)
17:02:12 From Patrick Lichty : I come from the sociological approach of Symbolic Interactionism that posits that semiotics as arising from the necessities of the social contract versua the transactional, although they are relatedd. But then as Marc-Antoine says that terms should be used loosely, I think of the differences between the approaches in terms of this conversation.
17:02:28 From Brandel Zachernuk :
17:02:29 From Brandel Zachernuk :
17:02:45 From Marc-Antoine Parent :
17:07:28 From Marc-Antoine Parent :
17:07:53 From Frode Hegland To alanlaidlaw(privately) : Alan please… SOrry about interuption
17:09:06 From Marc-Antoine Parent : Delphi approach, hyperforecasters….
17:09:22 From Frode Hegland : please mute all when not talking
17:11:03 From Daveed : Roam Research
17:12:27 From alanlaidlaw To Frode Hegland(privately) : roam is a fair example but still too explicit for what I’m trying to suggest. I’ll clarify in chat if it occurs to me. thank you!
17:12:49 From Marc-Antoine Parent : all distinctions are on demand
17:13:12 From Marc-Antoine Parent : for the purpose of an argument
17:15:03 From alanlaidlaw To Frode Hegland(privately) : there is a bit in Language v Reality about describing smells and generally how awful we are at describing odors. we seem to rely on metaphor or narrative to try to convey the smell.
17:15:49 From Frode Hegland : that was to me send to everyone!
17:16:07 From Marc-Antoine Parent : put another way: abstraction is with respect to a given conversational context
17:16:08 From alanlaidlaw To Frode Hegland(privately) : how to communicate odor is a useful exercise and proxy for communicating idea, fluid hyperobjects, etc
17:16:20 From alanlaidlaw To Frode Hegland(privately) : dammit
17:16:28 From alanlaidlaw : there is a bit in Language v Reality about describing smells and generally how awful we are at describing odors. we seem to rely on metaphor or narrative to try to convey the smell.
17:16:35 From Frode Hegland To alanlaidlaw(privately) : 🙂
17:16:40 From alanlaidlaw : how to communicate odor is a useful exercise and proxy for communicating idea, fluid hyperobjects, etc
17:16:51 From Marc-Antoine Parent : Being able to refuse that a given distinction applies in a given context is also fundamental
17:17:10 From alanlaidlaw : frode, what’s the other book?
17:17:15 From Frode Hegland : one min…
17:17:44 From alanlaidlaw : i would LOVE to see that
17:19:43 From Marc-Antoine Parent : no LaTeX? 😉
17:19:49 From Frode Hegland : NO!
17:20:23 From Marc-Antoine Parent : awwww
17:21:49 From Peter Wasilko : I love LaTeX, it is so rewarding to craft your own custom document class! See:
17:22:58 From alanlaidlaw : roam is a good example but not what I’m talking about bc the entities are one dimensional and declarative. but thank you.
17:23:55 From Peter Wasilko : Of historical interest vis-a-vis the Vietnam era, see :
17:24:41 From Patrick Lichty : Tyranny of reason by Levin?
17:25:40 From Patrick Lichty : Frode, could you repeat the thesis of your question regarding VR?
17:26:08 From Marc-Antoine Parent : (How minds change: David McRaney)
17:26:53 From Patrick Lichty : I’ve done this with tapestry and AR, and the SR being contextual.
17:26:56 From Marc-Antoine Parent : curious about the connection
17:28:27 From Marc-Antoine Parent : (I meant about your typology of arrows)
17:28:34 From Frode Hegland : good phrase Bob
17:28:43 From Frode Hegland : “relatively stable subject matter”
17:29:34 From Marc-Antoine Parent : big fan of Walton’s work on argument frames
17:30:23 From Brandel Zachernuk : If you’d like I could go through the slides on my web-based “relationship builder” for browser history that I linked recently
17:30:45 From Peter Wasilko : Simulmatics Corporation started modeling voter behavior in the US and then took on defense contracts in Vietnam trying to model and influence the local population.
17:30:47 From Daveed : Frode, can you provide link to Bob’s book that includes the concept of warrants?
17:31:06 From Brandel Zachernuk : Daveed, it is the link that I cited
17:31:31 From Marc-Antoine Parent : Frode was enthusiastic about VR
17:31:33 From Marc-Antoine Parent : unlike me
17:31:44 From Daveed : TahnksBrandel
17:35:49 From Peter Wasilko : At one point, echoing Dune mythology, they even tried introducing a fake “prophesy” that the US was destined to win the war in the hope of making it self-fulfilling.
17:37:02 From Marc-Antoine Parent : yes, many more sensible use cases for AR vs VR.
17:37:15 From Brandel Zachernuk : Patrick, I’d love for you to look through some of my work at
17:40:38 From Patrick Lichty : thank you!
17:41:50 From Fabien Benetou : an entire wall of my bedroom as a kid was a corkboard, highly recommended
17:41:57 From Patrick Lichty : Just starred it.
17:42:31 From Marc-Antoine Parent : Am I the only one here with weak visuo-spatial memory? My memory is primarily linguistic.
17:43:12 From Frode Hegland : interesting Marc-Antoine!
17:43:13 From Frode Hegland : view of more places. ring doorbell and so on
17:43:23 From Brandel Zachernuk : I have total aphantasia
17:44:11 From Marc-Antoine Parent : ah, interesting! did not know that name. I’m not sure mine is total, but pretty strong.
17:44:35 From Marc-Antoine Parent : btw Brandel love the TextTrees.
17:46:08 From Brandel Zachernuk : thank you! That original work’s not mine but it’s out of patent so I wanted to make use of it myself 🙂
17:46:26 From Peter Wasilko : Do you have a canonical URL for Project Alexandria it looks like there are a few out there.
17:48:40 From Frode Hegland : current issue is lack of integration. headset on and have the laptop immediately and then more. snap fingers for rooms
17:51:04 From Marc-Antoine Parent : the light circles are probably out of proportion 😉
17:52:11 From Patrick Lichty : For project Alexandria, I think it’s a little “thready” Maybe ask Henry Warrwick (Ryeerson) or Geert Lovink.
17:52:48 From Frode Hegland : The most profound thing a human can do is to choose where to look from.
17:53:11 From Patrick Lichty : Point of view is everything.
17:53:29 From Patrick Lichty : I have students make videos from the viewpoint of aa cat
17:53:52 From Marc-Antoine Parent : found this :
17:54:25 From Patrick Lichty : That’s a data point.
17:55:10 From Brandel Zachernuk : this guy is making a game from the perspective of a pillbug:
17:55:46 From alanlaidlaw : Brandel, that MR (non mask) approach is very rational. love it. there is an ill-defined tension in the act of putting on a mask that seems at variance w embodied cog. would love to hear more.
17:56:50 From Brandel Zachernuk : I think it could happen if pixels get as cheap as wallpaper as well – if you know where someone is in a room, you can marshal the display systems to provide a picture of it
17:58:22 From alanlaidlaw : exactly. I imagine little sconces you can fit around your house. then toss your screen from your phone to the wall. then manipulate directly
17:58:31 From alanlaidlaw : like dynamicland kinda
17:59:19 From Frode Hegland : for Omar and Yiliu and more
18:01:32 From Frode Hegland : Eduardo Koch
18:03:18 From Peter Wasilko :

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