16:06:08 From Mark Anderson : Hah! I took all my heading out for the book article after this cropped up (having broadly followed this idea of more structure).
16:17:59 From Mark Anderson : !! interesting how we tend to understand structure by visual styling so often start with it mixed in the text rather than abstracted into a semantic structure allowing the visual *styling to vary according to (human) reading need/choice whilst not polluting the actual text with non-textual elements.
16:18:02 From Frode Hegland To Dene Grigar(privately) : Hi Dene!
16:18:18 From Frode Hegland : Oh, and Happy Black Friday all!
16:19:10 From Mark Anderson : ..and a belated Happy Thanksgiving.
16:20:09 From Dene Grigar To Frode Hegland(privately) : Hi, good to see you
16:21:59 From Mark Anderson : !! Amen – looking for what *isn’t* there
16:25:01 From Patrick Lichty : Yes what is interesting is how to signify the media when you don’t have the constraints of a given media form factor. Goes back to Holtzman.
16:26:55 From Frode Hegland : lacuna?
16:28:03 From Frode Hegland : What would 3D software focused on text be like? If it’s not only allowing rendering of text shapes but which truly uses the multi dimensional aspects of text?
16:28:57 From Frode Hegland To Brandel Zachernuk(privately) : Hi Brandel. I’m at the Groucho. Lunch meeting went on way too long. Thankfully they gave me a room for this meeting
16:29:53 From Adam W : Do we need transitional spaces between VR library sections/collections? A meta-space containing different sub spaces? Or just many small spaces connected by links/portals/search?
16:30:01 From Frode Hegland : hmm…
16:30:18 From Frode Hegland : I can see the VR model
16:30:26 From Frode Hegland : mayeb restart screenshare ?
16:31:08 From Frode Hegland : have to sneak to other room, will be listening
16:36:54 From Frode Hegland : I thought you hated books Fabien…
16:38:01 From Frode Hegland : Brandel: Awww…
16:38:43 From Mark Anderson : !! That ‘some code’, whatever it is is the bridge from the non-digital domain to the digital medium.
16:41:02 From Fabien : text on the topic of the presentation https://fabien.benetou.fr/Analysis/LibrarianMoveWalls
16:42:28 From Fabien : code specifically related to this https://git.benetou.fr/utopiah/text-code-xr-engine/src/branch/master/index.html#L1606
16:43:10 From Fabien : some starting modifiers https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/latest/modeling/modifiers/index.html#generate
16:43:15 From Adam W : Fabian: do want a no-code Library as well? (Dominated by Interactions)
16:43:33 From Fabien : Adam: code is optional, it can be replaced by buttons
16:48:24 From Frode Hegland : I love where this is going. Vint calls it computational text. I’d love to be able to write a sentence in an article saying something like “for example all the other articles in this book which are written by those who are into VR” and have a list generated on the fly. ON background, it would depend on levels of immersion maybe and task at hand? Such research vs writing fx.
16:50:40 From Frode Hegland : The notion of ‘background’ and foreground is fundamental yes. I like the words you are saying now Fabien, I am glad we will transcribe this!
16:51:14 From Adam W : Another alternative would be to treat everything not as architecture but as objects to move with. (Fluid, gestural, dancing), could still be spatially connected of course, in formations.
16:51:56 From Fabien : Adam : I like the choreographic aspect.
16:53:20 From Mark Anderson : re code always being visible : whilst code remaining ‘present’ in terms of being available it needs to to be hide-able for the likely greatest number of (human) readers who have no knowledge of/interesting code. For them the code will be noise. IOW, what should be visible is very subjective. This has been front and centre in a number of current convos re knowledge exploration that I’m involved in at present. “It’s just code” has a very different—and challenging—meaning for different readers.
16:53:22 From Dene Grigar : Daveed, bridging between books is what Mariusz Pisarski are doing for the Cambridge UP book
16:54:40 From Daveed : An article about a web based digital town library that is in TFOT3 https://bridgitnow.medium.com/the-digital-town-square-needs-a-library-ad7ac15f3e14
16:54:58 From Fabien : on being social and bridging https://git.benetou.fr/utopiah/text-code-xr-engine/issues/47 cc @Daveed
16:58:27 From Dene Grigar : I need to get to another meeting. Thank you, everyone. Good to see you all.
16:58:38 From Dene Grigar : Bye! And thanks Frode for hosting this
16:58:44 From Dene Grigar : Terrific work, Fabien
16:58:54 From Daveed : Thanks Fabien, I will check it out
17:01:35 From Frode Hegland : interactions in books, like Patrick says push in to reveal. What about interactions for libraries?
17:02:16 From Adam W : Re: gestures. In my tests I really liked holding text in my virtual hand, moving it constantly when reading
17:02:48 From Frode Hegland : the importance of grammar, yes, so very very important Fabien. A real gesture ‘language’ will need grammar, or at least the possibility to have grammar, while also single commands, like natural language has both
17:09:10 From Patrick Lichty : My apologies – I have. To leave. Brilliant session.
17:09:12 From Daveed : I write down my dreams as well -in roam
17:10:58 From Daveed : Our background determines our starting point! So true!
17:11:04 From Frode Hegland : indeed
17:14:02 From Frode Hegland : why it’s so important to write in 2022
17:16:55 From Daveed : Thanks. Gotta to move on to next meeting. See you all soon.
17:18:10 From Frode Hegland : Yes Fabien, we are indeed all alone, with only our imaginations to connect us
17:18:18 From Frode Hegland : (from a poem I wrote when I was 16)
17:18:37 From Frode Hegland : yes, we can still communicate when we misunderstand each other
17:22:21 From Frode Hegland : glossary of space. interaction and so on. Please help expand the glossary. Mark: it doesn’t get in the way ‘for you’
17:24:43 From Mark Anderson : There is an interesting tension to between visible/fixed links and inferred/implied ones. This is how hypertext at its broadest speaks to me: the links create the structure yet in the minds eye that structure will differ for each person.
17:30:42 From Mark Anderson : This is why hypertext/media is such a wonderfully, if unintentionally, challenging PoV as it doesn’t start from the sort of structures we’ve just mentioned.
17:34:42 From Fabien : (believe me, everybody else does think so too)
17:35:07 From Frode Hegland : I am working on a letter for support of Visual-Meta from the ACM president where I make the point that: “…the very foundation of existence is interaction. Not matter, energy or even information.
This is important because it can, and should, influence how we design our information systems about the world, the universe and all of existence. We should elevate making our knowledge as usefully interactive as possible.”
17:41:22 From Adam W : So should the library fade away then when you want to focus on few works?
17:43:32 From Mark Anderson : !! fuzzy – yes. Straight lines (boxes, arrows, etc.) unintentionally imply a rigidity we don’t intend, in the current context.
17:45:28 From Frode Hegland : to interact in a digital space the elements need to be interactable, and this is not there by default
17:45:30 From Mark Anderson : The fuzyy object is loose edged, in the same manner the the ever-scrolling map, or a VR lack of limits.
17:48:25 From Frode Hegland : movement is interaction in my view so yes 🙂
17:49:22 From Frode Hegland : talking w edgar about scales. Dinosaurs on millions of years scale. Liek in a year we have weeks and days
17:53:28 From Frode Hegland : fair enough, clicks and such are ‘interactions’ today
17:54:25 From Frode Hegland : there is also this ‘interaction’ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_interaction
17:54:35 From Fabien : (too many hands for 6min I bet, checkpoint for next session?)
17:55:36 From Frode Hegland : sure, but we can go on maybe 15 mins more?
17:55:49 From Frode Hegland : line!
17:55:49 From Mark Anderson : My point is re Frode’s Visual Meta Q, I’ll push myself to the back so we can bottom out the current thread.
17:55:53 From Frode Hegland : draw the line. in space
17:55:55 From Frode Hegland : nice
17:57:02 From Frode Hegland : thank you 🙂
17:57:18 From Frode Hegland : scale, space, boxes, lines
17:58:40 From Frode Hegland : but it IS of course useful to map onto what our brains and bodies understand though, unless there is a good reason for it
17:59:48 From Fabien : text clarification on my last point about causal systems https://git.benetou.fr/utopiah/text-code-xr-engine/issues/58#issuecomment-235 without being limited to “just” human scale physics.
18:01:38 From Fabien : context in programming for me is scope
18:03:15 From Frode Hegland : “context travels with the cat” Jim S.
18:07:14 From Fabien : level of detail also in gaming development
18:08:36 From Frode Hegland : On Mark and scale seeing what you need. Bruce Horn, Finder, later Context. Sticky Paths
18:14:39 From Frode Hegland : catalyst
18:14:45 From Mark Anderson : !! catalyst
18:15:15 From Mark Anderson : !! catalyst as an anchor/start point too?
18:16:45 From Fabien : I suggest as a checkpoint that one person here today who would come to the next session on that topic would summarize in 15min. That should allow to restart efficiently.
18:17:42 From Fabien : A human bookmark.
18:18:25 From Mark Anderson : Note: sadly i’m travelling next Friday.