Chat : 9 December 2022 (FoT 3)


16:30:20 From Dene Grigar : Mark, my lab has developed metadata for VR. Though it focuses on what disabled people need it works for all of us. Kurt and Jarah Moesh, and Erika Fulop worked with Richard and me on this project
16:30:29 From Frode Hegland To Fabien(privately) : you can’t address it if you cannot address it
16:30:47 From Fabien To Frode Hegland(privately) : public msg I imagine
16:30:55 From Frode Hegland To Fabien(privately) : yes but zoom is stuck in private!
16:30:57 From Frode Hegland To Fabien(privately) : argh!
16:31:15 From Dene Grigar : See:
16:31:23 From Mark Anderson, Portsmouth (UK) : Excellent!
16:31:30 From Dene Grigar : Richard has done this work
16:32:07 From Yohanna Joseph Waliya : Ok
16:32:29 From Dene Grigar : We welcome any feedback on the model he developed for us
16:35:14 From Mark Anderson, Portsmouth (UK) : ^^ bookmarked
16:36:56 From Matthias Müller-Prove : This just came to my mind :: a workshop that I have conducted some yrs ago. Imagine the coloured tape strips as visible hyperlinks in a shared VR space.
16:37:16 From Dene Grigar : I’d like to hear more about that
16:38:27 From Daveed : Smart filter that you control
16:38:39 From Daveed : Must be transparent
16:39:00 From Peter Wasilko :
16:41:23 From Dene Grigar : Richard, this may be a good platform for your visualization course in the srping
16:42:09 From Frode Hegland To Fabien(privately) : ok, after Mark please 🙂
16:42:24 From Frode Hegland To Fabien(privately) : or give Karl a min?
16:42:32 From Richard Snyder : I agree, Dene, this would be amazing to work with.
16:43:00 From Dene Grigar : We may be able to entice Frode to speak in the class.
16:45:23 From Daveed : Hi all, we are finishing up Bridgit DAO’s book “The Metaweb: The Next Level the Internet”, which shows on the next level of the Web is a metadata-layer, that starts on the web becomes ultimately becomes a decentralized overlay on life. I would love give this community a sneak peek in exchange for a 2-3 sentence review. If interested, contact me at I am sending out the review copy tomorrow and the next comments by the end of the month. Here is my LinkedIn if you would prefer to connect that way:
16:47:20 From Matthias Müller-Prove : Gee, this is 20yrs old –– the fate of being a software archaeologist – just scroll down this page to see what was in the labs to visualize hyperdata back then. I am still intrigued by Xerox’ Information Visualizer project ::
16:47:55 From Karl Hebenstreit, Jr. : I have organized two events for today, so I’ll need to leave in about 20 minutes:
At 1:00pm Eastern, I am presenting about Doug’s influence on my career and doctoral studies — Bootstrapping Personal Augmentation Systems.  We’ll be leveraging an intriguing facilitation process, 3Practice Circles, 3practice-circles, which is one of the core Methodologies of my H-LAM/T augmentation system.  
Both will be using this Zoom meeting:
From 6:00-8:00 Eastern, we will be hosting an “After Party”, a social networking event where we can be viewing excerpts from the 1968 demo ( ) and some videos from the 40th anniversary celebration, Engelbart and the Dawn of Interactive Computing ( )
16:48:03 From Richard Snyder : @Matthias, interesting to note the idea of floating rectangles in those prototypes.
16:48:35 From Karl Hebenstreit, Jr. :
16:52:19 From Matthias Müller-Prove : @Richard. Yes. It is kind of obvious once you move into 3D. The real advantage IMO is distance. Stuff that is less interesting at the moment is literally in the background and therefore smaller.
16:56:15 From Richard Snyder : @Matthias distance intrigues me as a way to encode importance and/or relevance, but we cannot discount its potential for impact. Standing below a skyscraper-sized word has a palpable effect on the body and pulls focus on a completely different scale
16:56:56 From Dene Grigar : A challenge will be an effective way to prepare and export text for an inworld experience
16:57:16 From Matthias Müller-Prove : Note to self: Browse again through “Readings in Information Visualization: Using Vision to Think”
17:00:28 From Frode Hegland : The final book, before we add this discussion is uploading to
17:00:37 From Dene Grigar : You could adhere to Anna Anthropy’s notion of the importance of “crap art.”
17:01:42 From Fabien :
17:03:10 From Fabien : for a page itself rather than “just” its text.
17:04:32 From Matthias Müller-Prove : my reas
17:04:38 From Matthias Müller-Prove : oops 😉
17:05:31 From Matthias Müller-Prove : On my workbench: Open IIIF books with one ChronoLink. Follow the white rabbit…,-0.18339&z=8.44&m=IFnjp.32101068151057-5&d=1&s=1&iiif-content=
17:05:44 From Richard Snyder : I’ve noticed XR reading methods often fall into two camps: text that follows the view and/or floats unbounded in space and text that is an manipulable object. XR designers take these in radically different directions for different purposes. For the former, the goal is to make the text feel light, responsive, and always where you need it. For the latter, experiments tend toward making them chunky and tactile, even with large grippy handles that make them easy to manipulate. I can see a reading standard for long-form text combining both
17:06:30 From Dene Grigar : Nods at Richard
17:08:28 From Frode Hegland : it depends on what we mean by space. VR first
17:08:33 From Frode Hegland : Yes, good points RIchard
17:09:53 From Frode Hegland : layout should come from meaning right? So from semantic metatadata
17:10:46 From Frode Hegland : and thus addressability also
17:14:44 From Frode Hegland : ‘simple’ affordances Mark. Like using a hand. Simple, but powerful from simplicity
17:18:32 From Dene Grigar : Sorry, phone call
17:19:34 From Peter Wasilko :
17:20:14 From Matthias Müller-Prove : These kind of ChronoLinks work for all books at Internet Archive. e.g. one of Doug’s reports,0.0247&z=9.09&m=IFTNM_Man-Machine_Information_System_users_guide_19_20171116_0102-17&d=1&iiif-content=
17:21:00 From Matthias Müller-Prove : Whatever we do for VR – we have to interact and interoperate with the existing web infrastructure.
17:21:05 From Mark Anderson, Portsmouth (UK) : I would add re ‘code’ that hard != bad. Rather I’m recognising the distance in human learning activity between where we are now and where we dream of being. I find the protoyypes we see here very grounding in that respect.
17:24:01 From Mark Anderson, Portsmouth (UK) : dang, call at door
17:24:51 From Dene Grigar : I need to get to campus for meetings. Thank you, Frode. Thank you, Fabien. Bye, all.
17:26:13 From Matthias Müller-Prove : This is serious fun for us – IKEA’s book book concept ::
17:26:58 From Frode Hegland : How do want to read and interact with FoT 4 next year?…
17:29:22 From Frode Hegland : but this is the Cambrian Explosion now Matthias! Consistent later!
17:32:24 From Matthias Müller-Prove : Acknowledged. Though 1 year is not so far away in the future. It is too less time to implement the crazy stuff. Some prototypes might be developed and tested.
17:32:46 From Fabien : Very naive basic example (that is in FoT 3 AFAIK)
17:35:31 From Fabien : Happy to give onboarding demos during the hands-on session in Mons, Belgium, in few months.
17:38:53 From Frode Hegland : Matthias can you write a paragaph saying it’s the human at the center of this VR sphere for the book?
17:39:48 From Richard Snyder : I agree with Frode that now is the time to keep the space open for experimentation. Once ease of use is prioritized in a standard, we will lose the lessons that may be learned from resistance in the mechanism
17:41:31 From Matthias Müller-Prove : @Frode – I hope I did already on the last page of my text. I might rephrase it once again to capture the idea.
17:42:12 From Matthias Müller-Prove : _and make it clearer.
17:43:33 From Frode Hegland : 360 video is an interesting relation. I expect to be able ot reframe when I see now and feel ‘blinkered’ if I know I cannot see outside the immediate frame
17:50:19 From Mark Anderson, Portsmouth (UK) : Interesting. In this new environment does the visualisation drive the text that appears there, or vice versa.
17:51:16 From Richard Snyder : @Mark Could be worth returning to the idea of text as inscription. We have new spaces–instead of “writing with light”, perhaps our model is inscribing the virtual material of these spaces
17:53:13 From Matthias Müller-Prove : Isn’t it ironic the the 2nd cambrian explosion for VR happens at the same time when plenty of animals go extinct? As Doug said, we have to deal with these wicked global problems collectively.
17:58:27 From Frode Hegland : the first writing was not flat. it was dynamic. flames in caves on curved walls with paint

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