Chat Log : 25 September 2023


16:02:18 From Frode Hegland :
16:03:16 From Frode Hegland :
16:03:25 From Frode Hegland :
16:05:19 From Frode Hegland :
16:05:52 From Frode Hegland :
16:08:24 From Fabien Benetou : open source code
16:10:40 From Fabien Benetou : happiness research
16:11:18 From Fabien Benetou : EFF tshirt?
16:17:01 From Frode Hegland :
16:18:29 From Bill Bly : Yes! EFF: My heroes!
16:19:26 From Fabien Benetou : Reacted to “Yes! EFF: My heroe…” with ❤️
16:19:46 From Fabien Benetou : Got an EFF sticke on the window behind me, sadly the rare Belgian sun is hiding it today.
16:26:08 From Frode Hegland :
16:31:43 From Adam Wern : Listening in only (among people)
16:31:47 From Frode Hegland : Reacted to “Listening in only (a…” with 👍
16:31:54 From Frode Hegland : Just talking about you Adam
16:31:58 From Frode Hegland : Hi Alan
16:32:04 From Frode Hegland : Intro to new Bill
16:32:38 From Frode Hegland : Hi Keith
16:32:49 From Frode Hegland : Intro for Bill who is new and comments on what’s exciting on working in XR
16:33:12 From Alan Laidlaw : Hi!
16:34:30 From Fabien Benetou : for ref the AR monocle
16:34:51 From Fabien Benetou : (brb)
16:38:20 From Frode Hegland : The pitch for all of this, from this side. Comments greatly appreciated:
16:38:43 From Frode Hegland : Desk accessories in XR…
16:41:59 From Frode Hegland : Non-linear to linear and BACK!
16:42:01 From Peter Wasilko : Reacted to “Listening in only (a…” with 👍
16:44:47 From Fabien Benetou : wondering if this book could be formalized with uglyph
16:45:36 From Alan Laidlaw : What. Is. This. I’ve been looking for something like this forever!!
16:45:58 From Fabien Benetou : Reacted to “What. Is. This. I…” with 👍
16:47:10 From Frode Hegland : Can you invite to the symposium and/or book Fabien?…
16:47:12 From Peter Wasilko : Reacted to “What. Is. This. I’ve…” with 👍
16:47:59 From Alan Laidlaw : Send me that link please
16:48:07 From Keith Martin : Reacted to “Can you invite to th…” with ❤️
16:48:11 From Frode Hegland :
16:48:14 From Frode Hegland : That one Alan
16:48:20 From Peter Wasilko : For the gadget?
16:48:25 From Alan Laidlaw : No the gadget
16:48:40 From Frode Hegland : Oh, the thing Fabien is holding…
16:48:45 From Peter Wasilko : taht
16:48:48 From Peter Wasilko : *that
16:50:28 From Frode Hegland : Leap motion
16:52:25 From Fabien Benetou : new model
16:53:05 From Fabien Benetou : open source AR headset relying on the “old” Leap Motion sensor
16:53:32 From Mark Anderson : !! “Cursorless” being described by Alan ATM.
16:59:27 From Fabien Benetou : Reacted to “!! “Cursorless” …” with 👍
16:59:57 From Fabien Benetou :
17:01:11 From Frode Hegland : Planning: Sessions on themes: Edit/think/learn/interact etc?… also we need to WRITE MORE!!!! 😉 (also, please have a look at start of video)
17:01:15 From Frode Hegland :
17:02:11 From Alan Laidlaw : Yes, saw this. Very professional!
17:02:24 From Frode Hegland : Aww… generative AI to the rescue !!!
17:07:04 From Frode Hegland : (The second video on that page)
17:10:12 From Mark Anderson : Story in textiles: Two row wampum.
17:12:01 From Frode Hegland : OK, please type your suggestions for themes here!
17:14:04 From Frode Hegland : How to express it? Write or guided writing? Doug writing system:
17:14:18 From Keith Martin : The classic “do as I mean not as I say” 🙂
17:15:41 From Alan Laidlaw : My dad has a wampum belt made by Crazy Horse for his great great great(?) grandfather for saving his son.
17:16:17 From Frode Hegland : Oh wow!
17:16:18 From Mark Anderson : Reacted to “My dad has a wampum …” with 👍🏻
17:16:35 From Rob Swigart : two row wampun, right, Mark
17:17:54 From Alan Laidlaw : Fabien, rebuttal: Analytic philosophy changes your mind in order to learn it. And it is useful. But this doesn’t mean it is an accurate model of the world. It is like learning a philosophical fantasy.
17:18:31 From Alan Laidlaw : But I see your point and agree with it
17:20:01 From Frode Hegland : Mark, please go ahead
17:20:05 From Frode Hegland : I think I’m part frozen
17:21:15 From Fabien Benetou : “A programming language that doesn’t change the way you think is not worth learning.”
Alan Perlis
17:21:30 From Fabien Benetou : Reacted to “Fabien, rebuttal: …” with 👍
17:22:00 From Frode Hegland : Not all minds fit, or would benefit, from programming thinking, I feel I need to add…
17:23:32 From Alan Laidlaw : Btw, Im very open to the possibility that a natural programming lang is a bad idea. I’m not convinced of the value of informal langs or langs that piggyback off natural heuristics.
17:24:08 From Fabien Benetou : IMHO introspection could help a lot there but still one would have to understand the concepts first
17:24:17 From Mark Anderson : Nor me – no fixed position on Nat Prog Lang.
17:26:17 From Fabien Benetou : reference please on the levels of programming languages pedagogy Peter, first time I hear about it
17:26:38 From Alan Laidlaw : One of the problems was probably expressed by Kant. We are fine w local programming languages when it comes to a hammer, screwdriver, or text messages. The problem appears when the tool and problem space is not scoped or immediate.
17:27:17 From Alan Laidlaw : (Poorly worded but that’s the gist)
17:27:25 From Frode Hegland : Not programming lang. but richly interactive environments.
17:28:11 From Alan Laidlaw : Shiram prog lang book?
17:28:54 From Peter Wasilko :
17:28:55 From Mark Anderson : Perhaps we get hung up on the term programming. Generalised, aren’t we talking about declaring our intent (in an unambiguous manner)
17:29:54 From Peter Wasilko :
17:31:14 From Alan Laidlaw : Would you say that one should be able to fix their car engine? Or at least be able to understand what may be broken?
17:32:28 From Keith Martin : I use LiveCode to make apps and utilities. It’s significantly more like plain English than AppleScript. Of course it comes with its own limitations, but my use of HyperTalk then SuperTalk then LiveCode (all directly related) has been transformational in terms of learning structured thinking. (And making apps.)
17:32:40 From Peter Wasilko :
17:32:45 From Alan Laidlaw : Reacted to “I use LiveCode to ma…” with ❤️
17:33:48 From Alan Laidlaw : Literacy is a dynamic imperative
17:33:48 From Keith Martin : Replying to “…”
Now I want to try using emoji in variable names…
17:33:56 From Keith Martin : Reacted to “…” with 😂
17:33:56 From Fabien Benetou : Reacted to “Literacy is a dyna…” with 👍
17:35:19 From Bill Bly : Replying to “…”

Sudo make me a ham sandwich.
17:35:28 From Frode Hegland : Reacted to “Literacy is a dynami…” with 👍
17:35:30 From Keith Martin : Reacted to “Sudo make me a ham s…” with 👏
17:35:38 From Rob Swigart : Here is your ham sandwich
17:35:54 From Frode Hegland : Yes and there are so many layers of literacy so absolutely agree. Understanding the notion of code is part of that, absolutely
17:36:15 From Frode Hegland : Reacted to “I use LiveCode to ma…” with ❤️
17:36:39 From Alan Laidlaw : Replying to “…”

For a brief time I wanted to start a newsletter called Sudoscience
17:36:53 From Bill Bly : Replying to “…”

17:37:00 From Frode Hegland : Writing a spec/pseudo code is important part of this
17:39:35 From Alan Laidlaw : (The car example was an intentional land mine)
17:39:51 From Peter Wasilko :
17:41:13 From Alan Laidlaw : The key is the portability of the knowledge- but that is always leaky at best. I can fix a 72 diesel Mercedes but not a Tesla or taurus
17:42:59 From Fabien Benetou : Reacted to “The key is the por…” with 👍
17:43:10 From Frode Hegland : Video fx. It’s not about relinquishing, it’s about where you put it, like sovereignty.
17:43:11 From Mark Anderson : Reacted to “The key is the porta…” with 👍🏻
17:44:50 From Peter Wasilko : Reacted to “The key is the porta…” with 👍🏻
17:46:04 From Frode Hegland : Write text for action? Oh yes…
17:46:38 From Keith Martin : Totally agree. But if schools decide Excel is the way to teach kids programming we’re doomed.
17:48:11 From Frode Hegland : pseudo code
17:48:11 From Alan Laidlaw : Papert’s Literacy vs letteracy
17:48:13 From Mark Anderson : When talking/thinking across an expertise divide a real challenge is trying to figure which professed constraints are real which an acquired belief.
17:48:24 From Keith Martin : Programming concepts are far more important than worrying about which kind of brace or parentheses should be used. (Which is why I like LiveCode, but that’s its own rabbit hole.)
17:48:41 From Peter Wasilko : Reacted to “Programming *concept…” with ❤️
17:48:55 From Alan Laidlaw : Reacted to “Programming *concept…” with ❤️
17:49:09 From Fabien Benetou : ScratchJr is “just” blocks, the syntax is visually understandable without having to be able to read
17:50:05 From Keith Martin : Reacted to “ScratchJr is “just” …” with 👍
17:50:22 From Alan Laidlaw : Similar argument could be made for requiring kids to watch old movies. I don’t know where I fall on that.
17:51:31 From Keith Martin : Not easy – but exciting, empowering, enlightening…
17:52:11 From Alan Laidlaw : A game to embody high dimensional coordinate
17:54:33 From Fabien Benetou : Makes me think I should do a text based IronMan, namely they code their superpower, being able to pin them on their wrist or fingers as if assembling their “outfit”
17:55:12 From Frode Hegland : The PC revolution is ways over and constrained.
17:55:19 From Keith Martin : Reacted to “Makes me think I sho…” with 👏
17:56:24 From Frode Hegland : Teaching kids that the picture in the resume should be of them standing in front of a screen, looking like they are making a presentation
17:57:53 From Frode Hegland : Teaching engineering to build a house, architecture, interior design, psychology of spaces. Pilots ranks. Cannot program everything
18:01:08 From Alan Laidlaw : Right. learning bureaucracy is unfortunately a kind of literacy.
18:02:22 From Fabien Benetou : the argument being that being able to be program is itself more accessible
18:02:43 From Bill Bly : Gentlemen, I have to go. Thank you all for the fascinating conversation — and vigorous argument! I’d like to have a discussion about what XR is doing to Reality…
18:03:08 From Alan Laidlaw : Thanks Bill!
18:03:08 From Alan Laidlaw : I have to go as well

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