8 April 2024
Frode Hegland: Hi, Peter.
Peter Wasilko: Hello. How are you doing? What time is it for you?
Frode Hegland: It’s five in the morning.
Speaker4: 000.
Frode Hegland: Are you okay?
Peter Wasilko: Yeah. Pretty good. He’s out gardening during the eclipse, and it really was a physical. I’m far enough away from it so that it didn’t seem any different than if a cloud had drifted over the sun.
Frode Hegland: Yeah, that’s funny you should say that. The one eclipse I remember I was in Syracuse and we were driving, and it got really dark and it was weird and people were looking around, and then we looked up and it was an eclipse. That was obviously that must have been the one in the 90s they keep referring to.
Peter Wasilko: Yeah, that sounds about right.
Speaker4: Yeah.
Peter Wasilko: I didn’t faze the birds weren’t fazed. The animals weren’t fazed. Neighbors were standing outside, and trace Lounge’s staring up at the sun for the entire time. For about an hour and a half and nothing.
Frode Hegland: Yeah, that’s.
Speaker4: Thus they have the glasses.
Peter Wasilko: Fortunately though, otherwise they would have really been in trouble. I don’t even know whether it would be good to have been staring through the glasses that much time at the sun.
Speaker4: We’ll see.
Peter Wasilko: If they can’t see tomorrow, I’ll let you know. Hopefully they’ll be okay.
Speaker4: Yeah.
Frode Hegland: Indeed.
Speaker4: So we had the book club.
Peter Wasilko: This morning with that went really well.
Frode Hegland: Yeah, I saw the transcript of that. Yeah. Very good. It was not recorded though, is it?
Peter Wasilko: I don’t think she recorded it.
Frode Hegland: It was you, Damien and Mark. And who else?
Speaker4: Mark Anderson.
Peter Wasilko: Just us. And Alexander was sort of in the background listening.
Speaker4: Okay.
Peter Wasilko: I mean, Andrew was in the background listening. Alexander.
Speaker4: Yeah.
Frode Hegland: Somebody beginning with a. So I wonder who is coming now. We were Fabian tried to log on earlier. I don’t know if he Coming back. You know, I’m just going to text.
Speaker4: Oh.
Peter Wasilko: Oh, some good mail just came in. Always nice to have a good male.
Frode Hegland: So, yeah. While we’re waiting, see if anyone comes. Do you want to give me kind of a summary of this morning?
Peter Wasilko: Basically we’re talking about different significant aspects of virtual reality and what distinguishes it from the real world. Oh, I cited Murder She Wrote Up. So they ran. I don’t know whether you ever saw it, but there was a murder She Wrote episode called The Virtual Murder, in which Jessica teamed up with the Silicon Valley VR startup to do a immersive murder mystery experience. So that was really interesting because in the beginning she had a little conversation with one of the other characters about how it’s important for older people to get involved with newer technologies and not to be scared off and intimidated by them, which I really like. So I was citing that.
Frode Hegland: Yeah, that’s a very good point. That is very important.
Peter Wasilko: Then I pulled in a thread from cyberspace first steps that one of the attributes of virtual reality was that the virtual world would persist even when you’re not connected to it. And that wasn’t part of the points that were in the piece she had us read. So that was an extra strand that needs to be tied in.
Frode Hegland: Yeah, that I remember the first time I experienced something like that, I was playing unreal. The, the game and I died in the game and the game kept going. I saw other players running around, but I was the only player. So it started. It kept all the AI bots kept playing each other. It didn’t care of the fact that I was no longer in the game. That was a very viscerally kind of what the hell?
Speaker4: Exactly.
Frode Hegland: So yeah, there’s some interesting aspects there.
Peter Wasilko: And Dean was talking about her early experiences in moose. We had a side discussion on the rape and cyberspace.
Speaker4: You know.
Frode Hegland: Yeah, it’s going to be a big thing.
Peter Wasilko: And that reminded me of. An old episode of Max headroom where they said the credit fraud was worse than murder because it goes to the very foundations of the world that they lived in. So you kill somebody, they’re dead. But if you can’t trust credit, the entire system fails for everybody.
Frode Hegland: You know that in Europe in the 1600s it was very much like that if you were guilty of forgery. And when it comes to financial matters, you would be found guilty. You would be boiled alive. So your punishment was worse than murder for exactly that reason.
Peter Wasilko: That’s a very effective deterrent.
Frode Hegland: Yeah, I would imagine so. Have you been watching the the new show Shogun? Now. It’s it’s quite amazing. And there was a scene in there that came up and I was like, oh, that’s horrible. And the first episodes isn’t like running a long story, but so then we looked it up and said, yeah, that was usual useful in Europe. Excuse me. Used in Europe to. So I got pretty scary.
Peter Wasilko: And I’m going to try to find where in the cyberspace first steps books. They were talking about that principle of the world persisting whether you were connected or not, because unfortunately, they didn’t put an index in that volume. There should be like a special hell for authors who do anthologies and don’t have a master index that you can find things afterwards.
Frode Hegland: Yeah.
Peter Wasilko: But it’s in there somewhere. At least I know which book I saw it in with certainty, even though I can’t remember which one of the chapters or authors came up with the point. And then near the end I also mentioned from that book the
Speaker4: Oh, was it.
Peter Wasilko: The there was a principle of personal visibility or something along those lines. I don’t remember the exact original source wording, but the idea was that one of the other key aspects of virtual reality was that you would be visible to other participants in the space.
Speaker4: Yeah.
Frode Hegland: Yeah. Sorry. Go on.
Peter Wasilko: Yeah. And Denny mentioned she saw some system somewhere where they had variable levels of visibility, depending upon how familiar you were with the other person. So if it wasn’t someone that you were really close to, you’d simply see a gray form of a generic person avatar. But if it was someone who you authorized to be in your inner circle, then they’d get to see more detail fleshed out.
Frode Hegland: So Apple just announced shareplay. And FaceTime calls. And that’s five people, and I’m just trying to find the developer stuff for that, because it does deal with what you’re talking about. How much can be seen, how you share the space and all of that as not an ideal, but as something that’s implemented.
Peter Wasilko: Oh, and as you requested, I emailed Dini with all my GitHub stuff and she’s connected me. So I’m in the main lab repo now.
Speaker4: Okay, I was looking.
Peter Wasilko: Yeah. So I was looking at the code.
Frode Hegland: And how was that?
Peter Wasilko: Well, at the moment, it’s one giant, humongous single file. I’d strongly recommend breaking that up into separate modules and importing logically discrete sections so it’ll be easier to navigate.
Frode Hegland: Yeah. No. Absolutely. That will be that will be important to do.
Speaker4: So maybe what.
Peter Wasilko: I’ll do is I’ll pull that file into tinderbox and let tinderbox explode it at the start of function calls and see what it looks like.
Frode Hegland: So yeah. So I’m typing. I’m just trying to find this
Peter Wasilko: That’s actually the most useful function in tinderbox. The explode function. Because basically you can describe a pattern that you want to break a node up under. And then it will basically split up into discrete subnodes wherever that pattern appears. And handy data triage utility.
Frode Hegland: That is very useful. Yeah. You’re just going to have to look up.
Speaker4: Oh, that was a trip to Japan.
Peter Wasilko: How long did that take?
Frode Hegland: Oh we went via Beijing this time, so it was a little over 11 hours to Beijing. And then from Beijing, it was just three hours. We stayed there for three days, but unfortunately, Edgar got quite sick. He was very well on one day, so we thought everything was fine. But yeah. So we had a day at Tiananmen Square. That was absolutely amazing. Really, really atmospheric, lots of pictures, etc., but Yeah. I’m so grateful he’s saying. So in the country and seeing how modern it is, seeing how many cameras there are, there are so many cameras there, it’s absolutely nuts. So Yeah, it was a good flight. It was definitely a good trip.
Peter Wasilko: Well, I hope he’s feeling better now.
Frode Hegland: I don’t know, I’m actually a separate room because I used to have a big snoring problem, and Emily’s aunty thinks I still do. It’s not as bad, but I get to have this meeting with you. It’s basically a bed. The sink is. Yeah, I have to sit sideways on the office chair to for the meeting. It’s tiny. But anyway, Emily texted that he He seems to have stopped coughing. Not quite as much coughing.
Peter Wasilko: So my good email was I’ve been accepted into the Institute for the Study of International Expositions, and that’s an online community of researchers who are interested in world’s fairs and similar events.
Speaker4: Oh, it’s a networking group.
Frode Hegland: But basically what.
Peter Wasilko: So basically it’s a networking group.
Frode Hegland: Oh, okay. Very good. Yeah. No, that’s one of your. Key interest, of course. I was using the vision on the flight for a couple of hours. It was very interesting. The person in front of me insisted on leaning back. So once everything was set up, I was in a forest, working very productively. So a basic use case. I don’t think anyone else is joining. Both Leon and Fabian tried earlier.
Peter Wasilko: Yeah. I saw Leon in slack, and he said he wouldn’t be able to make it for the times today.
Frode Hegland: Okay. Oh, he said that in slack. Okay. Yeah.
Speaker4: Well. Here’s Rob. I’m here.
Frode Hegland: Hello, Rob.
Speaker4: Good to see you, Rob. A long time.
Rob Swigart: I’m not here for a long time, but I’ll be here for a few minutes. I did have something to say.
Frode Hegland: Are you on a Nautilus?
Speaker4: Yes.
Frode Hegland: Is that because you’ve been naughty?
Rob Swigart: No, it’s because it’s on my mantel.
Frode Hegland: Cool. Yeah. So I’m not sure who’s coming. Fabian thought it was started an hour ago, so I don’t know if he has time to come back. Chance to come back out, but welcome. And please tell us what you have to say.
Rob Swigart: Well, I was talking to a friend of mine who’s a an academic and a scholar, and she wasn’t particularly interested in any of the stuff that you were doing. With documents. She said that that she’s fine with PDFs. But what she would like is to be able to click on the number of a footnote and have it spoken. So that she didn’t have to take her eyes off the text she was reading. Because often footnotes are useless. They’re just, you know, text references or something you don’t need to see. Right. And she thought if she could hear a few seconds of it and stop it, that would be a way to keep going without having to either look at the bottom of the page or worse, go to the end of the book or the section to read the footnote. So that’s my contribution.
Frode Hegland: That’s really interesting, actually. I’m going to share a screen with you for a moment on that. So you can see, of course. Right.
Speaker4: Yep, yep.
Frode Hegland: Just waiting for some to settle down. Right. Okay, so this is not a footnote yet. This is just a citation. But you know you can click on it and it’ll show you the source like that right.
Speaker4: Yeah. Yeah. Nice.
Frode Hegland: And
Rob Swigart: That’s standard. Which she doesn’t want to have to move her, I.
Frode Hegland: Yeah. This is not standard. It’s standard in my work. Nowhere else. Okay. So you can do it in reader, but you can’t actually do this. Oh. It didn’t do it on that. Oh, here we go. Here is a footnote down here. See. These are footnotes. They happen to just be links, these particular ones. But so you don’t move your eye at all, you know, you click on it right there rather than going to the end of the page. In terms of reading, though, we have this.
Speaker4: This thesis will.
Speaker6: Explore how the authorship and readership continuum can be be improved through augmenting academic documents.
Frode Hegland: So that’s just select text and hit the letter S.
Rob Swigart: Are. Well, that is interesting. I’ll tell her about it. They used to have rollovers, so if you ran the mouse over the footnote number, it would pop up.
Frode Hegland: Yeah, it depends where it is.
Speaker4: And.
Frode Hegland: In the normal acrobat notes. But it was Mark Anderson who wanted it for PDFs. So that’s why we have it for citations as well as footnotes.
Rob Swigart: Okay, good. I’ll pass that on.
Frode Hegland: It wasn’t difficult to do so I’m surprised it isn’t everywhere. And it’s not a very novel novel thing, but yeah, it’s there. But while you’re here, do you have another few minutes? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I’m just going to show you guys. Something that I came up with. Sorry. I’m working on a tiny screen here because of the trouble. Yeah. What in the world?
Rob Swigart: At least your air conditioned.
Frode Hegland: Yes, I am air conditioned, which is quite handy. Peter, you’re there, right?
Speaker4: Yes.
Frode Hegland: Okay, so it’s very brief, but I think it solves a problem for us. It’s the presentation here is based on it being done in author, but I think it would be better to do it in XR. And at the end I will show you how what I mean by that. So. Currently an author. At the bottom of the screen, you can toggle between write and map view. I’m also adding in the concept of this a reference view. So if you look, it’s bolded right at the bottom. I now click on map. We have the map. So these two things already exist. So if we now add references we get a basic column two column view of references. Lower left. There is column slash timeline. Lower right author. Title. Occurrence. If I now click on timeline, they move out like this.
Speaker4: Meaning beautiful.
Frode Hegland: Thank you. I really like that. Yeah. Thank you, thank you Peter. So the x axis now is in the past on the left and towards the future towards now on the right. The vertical lines indicate exactly the time that document was released. Lower writes author title occurrence toggles the x axis as in top down sorting. So even though you’ve got time running right to left, well, left to right, you can choose to have the documents any way up and down. That was my big insight. That makes sense, doesn’t it? To use the two axes like this.
Peter Wasilko: That’s brilliant. That needs to be written up and published somewhere fast.
Frode Hegland: Well, I hope I can just do it because I’ve been in email discussions a little bit with You know that doesn’t matter. Okay, so the next step is you select an item and suddenly you can see the authors names again and the year and also shows what it cites on the left, who cites it on the right, very much like we’ve seen in our other work. Right.
Frode Hegland: So here’s the thinking. If we want to do this in XR, all we need to do is use our little control rectangle that’s at the bottom by your hand and put exactly the same controls on there. Basically column slash timeline, because sometimes you just want a column to find something easily, right?
Speaker4: Now.
Frode Hegland: And that’s it. Really? Yeah, I just wanted to run that by you guys because Hang on, I can’t see you bringing you back because right now, we’ve been spending quite a lot of time in the reference section, which is very important and good. But we do need to be able to integrate going to the reference section into different things. The different views, different aspects of the doc, different parts of the document. So we’ll see how that goes.
Peter Wasilko: Well. It looks really elegant. I like the design.
Frode Hegland: Thank you. Another thing I’m trying to do is in XR reader XR, I’m trying to accommodate Deeney’s wishes as much as possible because of the high quality text rendering. And one of them is But. Yeah, but where to put things? Hang on, let me see if I have a picture for that to show you. So yeah. So this is based on what we talked about together last time. I’m just going to make a full screen when zoom would allow me. To have for a PDF to have the title of the table of contents slash outline on the right.
Speaker4: Hang on.
Frode Hegland: There it is. And then also some way of doing annotations. But in this view, we also need a way to toggle into in and out of references. So we could use the the author style bottom bar for our giant toolbar and see how that works. So those were the those were kind of the ideas for today. That’s what I was mocking up. In Beijing two days ago. It’s been an amazing trip.
Rob Swigart: You must wonder where you are
Frode Hegland: Yeah. No, it’s. It’s good. It’s been Being in China was really a bit surprising. It was different from when I was here of many years ago. First of all, people are very well. I’m not there now. I just arrived Japan, but people are much more friendly and loud than I remember, and there’s a lot more display of public affection. You know, people would be holding, kissing, all of that stuff, you know, not in a too much sense, but in a really caring sense. And even on the highway driving to the airport, the taxi driver would chat with the person taking the money. There will be. How are you? Thank you. All of that kind of stuff. There’s lots of that. And that was all in the shadow, so to speak, of so many cameras. So, you know, when we would be on the run on the on the tube. Sorry. On the way to Tiananmen Square in other places, sometimes we’d see two soldiers at guard, standing almost back to back, kind of adjacent, looking out. They would also have a camera on them so that somebody could make sure they were standing to attention. Right and entering the country and leaving the country. The amount of paperwork when we’re leaving. After we checked in, one of the guys came running after us to check if he had a piece of thing done. And we were just thinking, what are you going to do if we’re missing this? Throw us out of the country? You know, we’re literally on our way out.
Speaker4: No, not let.
Peter Wasilko: You leave the country.
Speaker4: Yeah. Not let you leave.
Frode Hegland: It was also interesting with the food because Edgar was sick for two days. We ate a lot in the block, the hotel block. And it’s like they’re almost self-contained cities, you know? And so we were eating in the food from the kind of tiny little restaurants the employees would eat, and some of the food. If I had been served it in the West, I would have said it was not authentic, which was really cool. I was like, okay, here it is in a Chinese restaurant in China. It is authentic, you know, it’s some of them may be a bit of tomatoes or whatever. So I was like, okay, time not to be a snob about food. Yeah, I was, I was lovely. Wouldn’t want to live there, but great, decent experience.
Rob Swigart: Well. I’ll reconsider.
Frode Hegland: So, Rob, you’re at home?
Speaker4: Yes, sir. Yeah.
Frode Hegland: Shall we try a FaceTime Shareplay call?
Rob Swigart: Oh, we could try it. I think we had a a.
Speaker4: It’s.
Frode Hegland: Peter, you know, I really look forward to when you have an opportunity. I understand it’s not super easy, but. It’ll be really great. Whoops. Sorry. This room is so tiny. It’s basically a shoebox. Things are going to fall down. Yeah. So, Peter, what we’re going to try now is actually worthwhile explaining. It is not just a FaceTime call, but it’s where our upper torsos are going to have to set this up. I shared, kind of floating in space with each other. So it’s obviously a huge thing. And related to what you guys talked about this morning. But what’s special about it is that it exists.
Speaker4: Oh, that’s something.
Peter Wasilko: You can share over the screen. You can do like a screen share of what you’re seeing in that experience.
Speaker4: We’re not going to try that.
Frode Hegland: Okay, I’m going to try that. Exciting. The view mirroring. I have a web browser running in the side here with the things that. Fabian. And then we’re trying to make me do what? I have to try that again.
Speaker4: He only.
Frode Hegland: Unable to connect. What’s that about?
Rob Swigart: That’s work. Okay, so we go to people.
Frode Hegland: Yeah, just try to call me while I try to set up sharing for Peter. First I should probably. Yeah. But in the world is that. Why am I hearing Edgar?
Rob Swigart: Just fit.
Frode Hegland: Okay.
Speaker4: A.
Frode Hegland: Okay.
Rob Swigart: Okay. Waiting.
Frode Hegland: They’ll join. There we go. So I’m just going to move you down while I’m trying to connect Peter here.
Rob Swigart: You look slightly up. Unmute.
Frode Hegland: Oh, fantastic. You can see.
Speaker4: Okay, I think. Yes, I can see. Okay, wait a minute, wait a minute.
Frode Hegland: So I can see this Californian dude here. Okay, I’m going to go full VR so that it’s not too messy a background. And then. Six.
Rob Swigart: No I can’t. No, I can’t turn off.
Speaker4: Hang on. I’ve got two.
Rob Swigart: Speakers. I got two speakers.
Frode Hegland: Yeah. Can you turn on off your computer? One.
Rob Swigart: Well, you can’t hear me then.
Speaker4: I hear you.
Frode Hegland: Hang on now, I have a similar problem. Well, actually, here is it anymore?
Speaker4: Both.
Rob Swigart: Both of them are speaking.
Speaker4: I have to.
Rob Swigart: Disconnect one of them.
Frode Hegland: Yeah. So I’m going to try to give us a shared experience here.
Rob Swigart: No, no. That’s that.
Frode Hegland: Okay.
Speaker4: Okay? Okay.
Frode Hegland: It doesn’t like me trying to launch something now that we have shareplay on. Okay, I’m just going to open my. Okay. Not shared. Share my entire window.
Speaker4: This is maddening.
Rob Swigart: This is maddening. Where is I? Here. No. Come.
Speaker4: You should have some sort of cessation.
Frode Hegland: For So. Now. Come on. Is that the sound you’re working on? Sound you’re working on?
Speaker4: Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Swigart: I hear me. And then I hear it there. And when you talk, it’s coming out of both speakers.
Frode Hegland: Yeah, you can mute and FaceTime. If your computer is still running, that should be fine. So just tap on the picture of me and FaceTime. And then at the microphone button. That’s what I had to do to you. I had the same problem.
Speaker4: Oh.
Rob Swigart: I can’t see the microphone.
Speaker4: Yeah. Nope.
Rob Swigart: Can’t do it.
Speaker4: All right. That’s me.
Rob Swigart: That’s me. Hey, wait a minute. Hey, wait a minute.
Frode Hegland: Peter, you can see my environment, right?
Peter Wasilko: Yes. Everything looks perfect from here.
Rob Swigart: Can you hear me now?
Frode Hegland: Bom bom bom.
Speaker4: Okay.
Frode Hegland: I’m just going to increase the volume of my laptop before we. Okay. The stereo video, by the way, as you can see here on the corner, it’s absolutely when viewed in the headset, it’s absolutely, insanely good. You know, when I’m looking at it now. It looks like I’m in the back of that taxi.
Speaker4: So does look like you’re.
Frode Hegland: Okay. Are you able to join the Hang on. Just moving you about. Yeah. So if you tap on my name now, Rob, you will get a little bar at the bottom with my name. And an X to disconnect.
Rob Swigart: No. I can move you around.
Frode Hegland: Tap inside the box again. Now look inside the box, not the bar. And tap again.
Speaker4: Oh.
Rob Swigart: Well, you’re. You’re not inside the box.
Frode Hegland: Am I outside the box?
Rob Swigart: Oh, you’re you’re on the. You’re on the side.
Frode Hegland: Okay. So if you then. Okay because you are not I’m.
Rob Swigart: Looking I’m looking at the computer.
Speaker7: I’ve been thinking about.
Frode Hegland: What do you mean? Looking at the computer.
Rob Swigart: I’m. I’m looking at my computer is right in front of me. You’re on the side in a separate window.
Frode Hegland: Yeah. Okay, so look at me and just tap your fingers. And that should generate a bar underneath.
Speaker4: Okay.
Rob Swigart: And now what.
Frode Hegland: In there on the top right there is a half fuzzy. Person thing. Try that please. Oh my God, something’s happening. Are you teleporting into my space? Or did you disconnect?
Peter Wasilko: I don’t see him anywhere now.
Frode Hegland: I think you might have disconnected by accident. As Rob. Yeah, I think it is connected by accident. Start again. Yeah. So, Peter, what I was saying, you know, this is one of the views I have of reader in XR.
Speaker4: To do this.
Frode Hegland: Hello?
Rob Swigart: Hi. You’re still in a separate window.
Frode Hegland: That’s okay. I haven’t okay. I’m going to share now. Oh, so I cannot measure. At the same time, it seems. Okay, we’ll tap on in my thing. Tap on it instead of the X, which.
Rob Swigart: Yeah okay.
Frode Hegland: Now tap on the thing above it.
Rob Swigart: I turn on.
Frode Hegland: Oh my gosh, you are there.
Speaker4: I see.
Frode Hegland: Okay. So, Peter, can you still see?
Speaker4: Yes. So what happened?
Frode Hegland: Am I free floating in your space?
Rob Swigart: You’re free floating, but I can’t move you. And you’re almost hidden by the. Monitor which I can shrink. Okay, I shrink that.
Speaker4: What you.
Frode Hegland: Can do. What I just did with you. I look at you pinch, and then I get this rectangle on the ground where I can place you where I want to. I have control over Rob. No.
Rob Swigart: It goes to your picture.
Frode Hegland: That’s actually. Oh, come on, come.
Speaker4: Back over.
Rob Swigart: Here.
Speaker4: All right.
Frode Hegland: This is extraordinary. What are you trying to do? Tickle me?
Speaker4: But.
Rob Swigart: Oh, there’s the rectangle. Oh, okay. Amen. Yeah.
Frode Hegland: Can you say that? I have a PDF open. Rob. Yeah. Okay.
Speaker4: Which in their.
Frode Hegland: It’s kind of odd because I can’t put you in a useful view, so I’m going to have to. The thing is, all apps support this spatial sharing, but not very well. As an. There are some limitations. I’m going to have to tell my programmers how it should. Because you’re saying it from.
Peter Wasilko: Is Rob saying it from the perspective that I’m seeing it, or is Rob seeing it from the direction that his head is looking into the space and not seeing the PDF off to, I guess, his relative, right?
Rob Swigart: I see my computer screen which has my stuff on it. And I see Frodo floating in space to the left of it, and I’m hearing it twice.
Frode Hegland: Where do you see the PDF?
Speaker4: You know.
Frode Hegland: A or do you not see the PDF? Now. Okay. Yeah. Okay. That’s the issue. I can’t share because I’m sharing externally, but okay, at least now we know. We know. But I’m going to just change. What environment are you in? You’re on your own room environment. You’re not in my by the lake environment, right? No.
Rob Swigart: Why am I not in your lake?
Frode Hegland: I think the only thing that you’re projecting is. Where you are. I’m going to change to Joshua Tree. Oh, it doesn’t change. I guess I can’t change during a session. Anyway that was worthwhile having you. Floating in space was quite a.
Rob Swigart: Yeah, fascinating, but I don’t see. Oh, wait a minute. Hide other apps. Close map virtual. Okay.
Frode Hegland: Though, Peter.
Speaker4: Yep.
Frode Hegland: Just for a second, I’m going to disconnect the view just so that I can see if I can share the PDF with Rob. Okay. Okay. So I’m sorry that that’s a limitation. I’ll try to be quick. So stop mirroring.
Rob Swigart: On my screen now, which is.
Frode Hegland: Oh, the sound improved, actually. Okay. I can’t really see you. I mean, I can’t move you anymore, but. All right, so I’m going to go back now. Still doubled. So you have to pick one, I think either headset or a computer. So this is weird, everyone, because I haven’t programed this into reader. When I try to do share, it won’t do anything. But if I do share my entire window, it. Oh my gosh.
Rob Swigart: Here we go. Okay, now I got it.
Frode Hegland: So, Peter, we’re now next to each other. I’m over here. To your left. Right.
Speaker4: Hello. Oh.
Frode Hegland: That’s a bit close. I’m moving you away. How’s that?
Speaker4: Cool, right?
Rob Swigart: Now this moves everything. Okay? All right. So you’re in profile now?
Frode Hegland: I’m going to move this one over. Oh okay. Oh that’s interesting.
Speaker4: Screen is.
Frode Hegland: So, Peter. Yep, I can now move when I now move my window for photos, which is the default. It’s then becomes I’m going to just admit sound. Turn that off. It then becomes spatial, as in I move the whole room with Rob in it, so to speak. Rob, can you see reader here on the as well a PDF?
Rob Swigart: See Beijing. Dongcheng.
Frode Hegland: Now you can see.
Speaker4: It.
Rob Swigart: Is repeating now. There’s a very large screen full of document.
Speaker4: Later, of course, she was greeted. Keep it.
Frode Hegland: Okay, so this is very good.
Speaker4: Okay. That’s up.
Frode Hegland: So, Peter, what what we’re doing now in the same view, we have a PDF huge horizontal in front of us. And Rob is on the left. I’m on the right. Opposite. I’m on the left. He’s on the right. And we can now I scroll through the document and you can see what’s happening. Right, Rob? Yep. Fantastic. So here we can choose different views. We can do just two page. You can do all. Oh. Resizing is sometimes really hard.
Rob Swigart: Reasonably readable.
Frode Hegland: It’s not so bad, is it?
Frode Hegland: Yeah, it is a bit. Selecting text is still a problem, but you talked about your friend and her eyes when she’s reading. Doesn’t want to take them off because in XR we cannot touch anything. I think it’s very frustrating. It’s like trying to select texts. Is not easy unless you have a trackpad, of course. So that’s why the context menu. This thing the same as an iOS? Pretty much. I’ve redesigned it, which is not what you see here. To be more useful because the controls have to be where you’re looking. If the controls are far away. It’s easy for you to deselect the text while you try to do the command. All right, let’s go out of the world and back to Mr. Peter. And I’ll see you in zoom. Rob. Now we’re facing each other, right? How do I cancel the call in there? There we go. That was a worthwhile experiment. And experience. Peter, are you still there? Right. Yep. Okay.
Peter Wasilko: So now I see one of your mailboxes and the PDF in the background.
Frode Hegland: Yeah, now it’s all flatland.
Rob Swigart: Now I can turn the sound back on.
Frode Hegland: Yeah, that should be okay now.
Rob Swigart: Well, the the sound issue is a problem.
Speaker4: Yeah.
Frode Hegland: I don’t think it’s expected that you should have your computer on at the same time, but it’s not exactly ideal, though. It’s been handled, is it?
Rob Swigart: Since we’re working in collaborative work. Somebody’s computer has to be on.
Frode Hegland: Well, I mean, we can share everything. If it wasn’t for Peter this time, being in the outside world, we could do sound and everything in the headset. So at least we’re getting closer to understanding what that might mean.
Rob Swigart: Yeah, yeah, it should be selectable by each person. Yeah. They’ll get there. I was explaining that the headset was like the first car that would get four miles on a tank of gas and go almost as fast as a horse. And you would have trouble seeing the utility. But look what happened.
Frode Hegland: I think that’s a very good Instead of looking at it.
Peter Wasilko: So that was the computer 3D simulation of Rob’s torso floating in space.
Speaker4: Yes.
Peter Wasilko: So it wasn’t actually like a live camera looking in inside of the headset at his head. But it was the reconstruction.
Frode Hegland: No, no, no, it was a camera, but it is a 3D reconstruction based on the camera. So it was a live of of each other being projected.
Rob Swigart: But it’s video.
Frode Hegland: Yeah. 3d video. Yeah.
Speaker4: Yeah I can’t.
Frode Hegland: Just writing down that we need support for this. Yeah. So that’s that. So. Yeah. Anything else for today?
Rob Swigart: I think I still haven’t figured out how to get author inside the.
Speaker4: The VR.
Frode Hegland: Oh, yeah. Now that that’s that’s part of.
Speaker4: It is just trying.
Rob Swigart: To trying to get the URL pasted into the. Browser. I’m going to have to transfer it into a note. And then copy it from the note in the VR and paste it into the.
Speaker4: Well so far?
Frode Hegland: Well, there’s two different things with that. If you want to use my native software author and reader, you just go to the App Store and it should be there. But for the work we’re doing, okay. And that’s it’s been updated. It’s finally properly live now. But if you want to do the XR experiences, that’s why we have our simple URL, just go to Future Text lab.info and you can easily click through to whatever is the latest one.
Speaker4: Okay.
Frode Hegland: So that that should help. I’ll put the. You have that in there already. Right? So here it is.
Speaker4: I think so.
Frode Hegland: I’ve also gone through Denny’s use case again as research question and try to piece it into smaller interactions so we have something more solid to refer to. So that is their. There are few things we need to build. So, Peter, a question for you. Yeah. Because in the group this seems this is a an interesting issue of not always agreement. And first of all, as I’ve said a million times, thank you for the idea of throw away extra appendices for visual methods. Very useful. What what I’m thinking of doing is when someone opens a document that has visual meta proper visual meta, not just citation in webXR that there is also some pre-stored spatial information in there.
Speaker4: That makes sense.
Frode Hegland: That shouldn’t be the biggest thing in the world, should it?
Peter Wasilko: Well, there are a couple of ways I could think of approaching it. One. We could have a couple standard templates for spatial configurations, and that would be sort of like the CSS grid model, where you can have named grid regions. So you’d simply say this should be in whatever the named region is based on some standard stock template. The other possibility is, of course, to go really low level and give actual x, y, z coordinates in the space and give a set of orientation. Dimensions to that. So you’d basically give the angles to represent what the orientation of the object is, plus the three dimensional spatial coordinates for it to appear at. But I think that would be more verbose and just probably too low level. Nice to be a little more abstract. And the third possibility is to come up with just sort of some sort of a language to describe spatial configurations and the picture language in the classic textbook structure, interpretation of programing languages sort of gives you a perspective of how that could work. You’d basically say that you want something alongside of another thing and how much you’d want it scaled and describe it using. Compositional building blocks like that.
Frode Hegland: Yeah. I mean, one thing I’m also thinking about is so Danny is very keen not to be 360 forward focused, which is what you’d have to be an author. For instance, you have to look where your keyboard is if you’re typing. So I understand her different use case. So in her use case. You will have still have a 360 environment, but you may still have something like top, bottom, right or left, something that basic. So let’s say we go to one of our early designs and we have Oh. Hello, Leon. Actually, Peter, I’m going to pause this now show. Lay on the thing we just looked at, because it’s going to be completely relevant to that in a minute. Is that okay? Sure. Okay, thanks. Leon, you have the ability to be both very late and very early all at once. Which is pretty perfect.
Leon van Kammen: Nice.
Frode Hegland: Yeah, indeed. Very nice. Right. So this is a thing that I came up with on the flight and mocked up, and I think it solves a problem for us. And there is. I’ve mocked it up in author and my own software style, but I think it’ll work better on XR and I’ll show you at the end. It’s really brief what that would mean. Oh hang on, the dialog thing is over. What I need to show you. Okay. Right. So an author today at the bottom of the screen you have write slash map. So this is the map view. This is the right view. And you can see it bolds when you go there I’m thinking of adding references. First. It just shows you I call them because very often you just want to call them lower, right? You can choose how to sort it by author, title or occurrence in the document. If it’s by occurrence in the document, it will show where these things are. So the very top one would be the first citation in the document. And if there’s a heading it would appear here. So that could be kind of fun. But on the left column slash timeline if you click timeline it does this. So timeline with the same sorting goes from left to right. Oldest document on the left. Newest document on the right.
Speaker4: So that’s pretty impressive.
Frode Hegland: It’s simple right?
Speaker4: I like it. Yeah.
Frode Hegland: Thank you. So it’s kind of funny, two years of looking at timelines. And finally I realized because we talked about x, y, z axes a lot. And all that’s happening here is we’re using one for sorting and one for time, but you can easily toggle between them. And if you then click on one, you get lines to previous documents, meaning it cited it lines to the right to documents that cited it, and then you have a little more info like the specific year and the author’s, you know, a little boxy thing. So that’s it. I’m very glad you like it. For me, it simplifies a lot. So if I could, I would probably implement this in author, but it’s more important for us to have it in XR. So the idea would be that instead of this bar at the bottom of the screen are a little bar in XR, the black thing. Just show it there. Exactly the same options, right? We could even keep the right and not. Yeah. Obviously, in reader view, it would be. Plain document or something in references, but as a as something to play with.
Peter Wasilko: Now another fun thing. Oh another fun thing we could do in XR would be to assign the depth axis maybe to relative occurrences of citation in the book. So you can have two dimensions independently at play along with the timeline.
Frode Hegland: Yeah, I think we if we agree on an approach like this, I think we should Do take what? Oh, by the way, Leon, have you had a chance to look at the code for Andrew’s XR experiment so far?
Leon van Kammen: Which version? I think I looked at it last week or two weeks ago.
Frode Hegland: Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Yeah. So now we need to kind of take stock and and decide where to go and also how to optimize the code slightly. So. So that’s why I thought of it. Peter just had a look.
Speaker4: Yeah.
Peter Wasilko: I think it really should be factored out into multiple files right now. It’s like one single main.js with. 3000 or so lines worth of gold, all in single file.
Frode Hegland: Yeah, it’s a bit much. Right. So what I was trying to say. So I got a bit derailed there is. I think we should do this one in a rectangle first. Play with it with something like this, and then feel how the other dimension adds to it. Because I completely agree with you, Peter. We should not make these things always flat, but I think it’s very, very difficult to progress. What it should be.
Frode Hegland: Also an additional thing of this is one what we were talking about Leon, when you came in, now is how it should be possible to hint in a document 3D aspects, spatial aspects. So when you open a document in XR, it’s not always flat. It can have a little bit of this goes there and that goes here kind of a thing to it. We’re wondering if that’s useful, how to do that? Maybe. And if so, what aspect should be done that to, etc.? Related to our copy paste discussion, I think.
Speaker9: Yeah.
Leon van Kammen: Well, I’m having a. And it’s a bit like I’m a bit confused lately about whether. Doing or implementing something which works very well in 2D to implement it. First in 2D in XR as well. Versus implementing a XR take on that 2D archetype. Almost. So, yeah, it’s. I find it a bit a tricky, as in, like it’s. It’s easy to confuse the user with a bad XR version of something which they know in 2D, and it might be boring to do something in XR in the 2D way as well. So it’s a very hard topic. And which which specific use case can you can you tell me again more precisely which specific use case? This is in 2D and in XR.
Frode Hegland: I’m just going to give you a link on that. I think these are very wise questions to address. So what I’ve done on our website, we now have on the page I gave you three main things research questions, use cases and user history. If you click on use cases there is
Leon van Kammen: Denise thinks.
Frode Hegland: Yeah, actually got a research questions. That’s where they are. One, two, three research questions. But on the bigger thing, what I’m thinking we should do is first try to automate optimize how an academic beanie works. Now, and once we got that kind of okay, we should sit back and see how can we optimize academia as a whole, throw everything away other than the basic core tenets of what academia should be? So if we want a new document format, we’ll just use it a new way of working. We’ll just do it. I think it would be a very interesting counterpoint. And hopefully there we could do more. Xr first, I mean author. My word processor was developed for iPad before computer. Which I found gave me a completely different view of what it might be to write. So it’s probably a good idea to do XR first once we can.
Leon van Kammen: And it’s a good point. Yeah. To be honest, I found it a bit overwhelming how Adine is doing research. I read some. She posted some kind of text about what her work is and her setup, and it was quite intense. If you look at all the devices, all the things she has to keep open at the same time. Well, that was quite intense. Yeah.
Frode Hegland: Yeah. I’m going to ask her if research question number three, assessing a graduate paper should maybe be swapped out for something more general, maybe reading our book. Because that only goes towards professors who are doing PhD students, which is very small user group compared to students, doesn’t involve students. So we can look at a, you know, in terms of the intensity she does do. Dna is quite unusual, of course, which is why she’s so brilliant. So she has quite a different workflow from some academics, but it’s a very valid workflow. So absolutely think we should stick to it, but not necessarily for all the use cases.
Speaker4: True.
Leon van Kammen: I was also thinking, now you’re saying this, that. Skimming is something which becomes very important. The more content you have to process in a very short amount of time. I was thinking that it’s quite annoying to Or it’s almost, it’s quite intense for your brain to go through pages like press page down and go through all these pages and wait until you see something you need. If you’re lucky, you have some kind of index, but sometimes you really have to skim. And I was even thinking that would be great if you could skim through a set of pages. And now I’m again, referring to your demo of last week. In Vision Pro for some reason it sticks sticked into my brain. But yeah, I’m now thinking that it might also be an interesting opportunity to skim through large documents in a, in a different way by having more things or being able to see more pages at the same time. I don’t know how they should be grouped, but it might be a bit easier to sort of look at all these pages and then do a sort of almost a, a meta page down, which, you know, gives you another bulk of, of pages.
Frode Hegland: I strongly agree with that. So Doug Engelbart had a view and, and in his view specs, which was of course outline was one. And then he had one where you would see every heading. And below that the first line under that heading. Because the first line gave you a better indication of what is actually in that section. So, you know, in author and reader you can collapse into an outline, which is a somewhat using useful. But what you’re talking about now, I think is much more important to. You say, this is what I really want to do. In addition to following the world as it is, I want the author to be able to.
Frode Hegland: Okay. I’m just going to share a bit of screen. Because some of these things we kind of have Okay. I’m just going to collapse you guys on the side here. What have we got? Okay, this is my journal, right? So if I now fold it, as you know, it just becomes an outline. But you see here that that text and the gray. That is text that is highlighted in their.
Leon van Kammen: So.
Frode Hegland: So for me it says this is something that I’m still working on or thinking about. And then of course, we have a focus mode where it follows, you know, everything is grayed out except for your cursor is. Then we also have this mode that if you bold something because usually bold is important to someone. You can choose to gray everything that isn’t bolded, which gives you yet another way to skim through your document, right?
Frode Hegland: So a point of that is. So this one doesn’t really have. So this is Danny’s article that you were talking about. It doesn’t have real data. It’s got post added visual data and entities. So that means we don’t have a table of contents or anything like that. But I can still do things like this. I can still see what I generated. Keywords are found in where. We still have things like Your names. So this is only the names, and it would be per section if it was a longer document. Is it auto strikes that as well? And if there were any glossary terms and there aren’t any.
Speaker4: Well, this is.
Leon van Kammen: This is very cool. You could even share it with a friend and say, yeah, everything is red. Is is the bad stuff? In my opinion, everything in green is the good stuff in this book and this will save you a lot of time. Focus on the good stuff, for example.
Frode Hegland: Yeah, that’s really important what you’re saying. One thing, you know In messages. Now you can select the message and tap. And then you get a thumbs up or thumbs down a heart and all these icons. Right. I think it might be useful to be able to do something similar here in text to easily like okay, so I’ll do a highlight yellow here. So it becomes a bit strong. But then this bit we don’t like, we do strike through, right? And then we have the normal. Highlights like this, which is just select text and H. These all have different effects on when I scroll out. That was massive. Yeah. So this is what it looks like as a table of contents title and then small of the author of that section. And that’s weird. Didn’t. All right. I’ve got to work on that. But the. The point is that. Yeah, we need to be able to. Specify to other. We need to annotate and useful and quick ways. And okay, so back to what I was trying to say. I’m sorry, I’m going a bit all over the place. I’m obviously a bit jet lagged and a bit silly. When you are authoring a document, you should be able to do these types of hints. And when you present the document, it should look normal. But then if you go to a specific view, you can see what the user has decided to highlight for you. So what you saw here? Normally shouldn’t see this. You are sitting at your desk, but if you hold it in a specific way, then you can see all the kind of hints that the user has given or reading that document. And some people would find it tedious. Some people might find it fun, like annotating pictures to upload to social media or that kind of thing. You know you’re massaging your information for to make it more interesting for people.
Leon van Kammen: It would be. It would be great if you could Yeah. No, sorry. I don’t want to. I’m. Maybe because it’s late here. I’m. I’m in a complete, full on brainstorm mode here. I’m. I don’t want to interrupt anything. What was going on here?
Frode Hegland: We were just talking about. There’s been a side discussion with some people about the notion of marking up a document. So when you open it in XR, it has some dimensionality to it, like the exploded view. We talked about it and stuff, that’s all. Yeah. So please continue your side quest. Which probably as a core quest, but anyway.
Leon van Kammen: Yeah, it was just thinking of a of a. Like, I’m just thinking in the future where this type of stuff is basically bread and butter and super normal to do. I, I was just thinking, I could imagine that you would basically you know, start reading a book as a student, and then you basically enter some kind of I don’t know, email address or some kind of email address of, of your teacher. And then and then it will base your reader will basically pull maybe or will try to pull some, some kind of visual meta with annotations from the internet to, to sort of like A hint the student how to read this book. And then you can see all these things which you were basically just showing like annotations, this and that. Because there are there are so many books. They are. I don’t know if I if I give a book of Karl Popper to a friend of mine, he will. He will think I’m crazy. Like, what the hell is this book? I don’t understand anything. And so there is like. If I could give him, like, all this information I already had you know, added to this book. I’m just thinking of the fact that the book is sort of like written in stone, but my visual metaphor is not. So that is sort of fluid. I’m just thinking of how to, you know, how to add that to a book. If I send a book to a friend from which is written by Rob Swigert, then I want to add some stuff about Rob or what I know about Rob or what I think why this is cool. Like some personalization. And I’m just I’m just thinking of, like, in the future that that must be very easy to to do.
Frode Hegland: Well, somehow this hypothesis kind of addresses this to an extent. But I think what you’re talking about here is really, really important. And this is the it is exactly the discussion we’re having. So a document is a document because it documents something, right? A shared document in my mind should not easily be changeable because then you can’t cite it and you just don’t know what’s happened to it. That’s why I don’t like word. I don’t like Google Docs etc. but what you’re saying is that you should be able to publish or share a thing, and that thing should have multiple relative layers or contexts. And so this is what Peter has suggested can go into the visual meta appendix, a separate item so they can easily be discarded on use. One thing we’ve talked about before is let’s say you send someone our book, which is very long, but you say only read 100 pages, 102 to 106, for instance. So you then do a binding of that. So that could easily go in the visual meta and say on first opening go to 102, hide everything else 102 206 only hide everything else. The user can read that and if they chose to choose to, they can click a button. Show me the whole thing. Bam! There it is. Right? Because you know, size of a book isn’t that big. And this also goes to the discussion of I have this very specific view that I want of these pages to appear in XHR. So I want it to be this, that, and the other, exactly the same kind of thing. So what you’re saying now is related to what we just looked at. An author can say, I’ve written this document and I have a little extra notes and not end notes, but extra notes that I would like a novice reader to read that I’ve written here in a special kind of endnote, let’s call it an XR note or something.
Frode Hegland: And then finally one thing that Wendy Hall, my main advisor, said many years ago, starting on my PhD, she doesn’t have time to write a lot. She wants to be able to just compile things. So what I can imagine you’re talking about early on is something like you’re going through a PDF and you literally drag URLs onto it, or you just drop things from the web, you just put stuff in, oh, no, this is about that. And that adds a layer where a reader can choose to see Leon’s additional information. That is in this document. I think this is core. I think this is really important. I think that since we have Rob here in the group, I just looked at him and I thought, we have hypertexts in the sense of linking in small units. We have spatial hypertext, which is hypertext primarily in 2D, which is important. But what you’re talking about here is a hypertext layer layering mode, right? What is visible, what is not visible? We haven’t really discussed that enough. You know, what are the layers of a document? I could very easily imagine Rob writing something that is quite simple text, but he has added these kinds of layers that the reader can choose to take advantage of. And if we can do that in an open format, that is really easy for anybody to use, I think we’ll have something quite powerful. So that was not a side quest. That was really core. Thank you for thinking about that.
Speaker4: Thank you. I think I’ll do it. Well.
Frode Hegland: If you want to do it, talk to us and we’ll make it possible. You could be number. You could be ground zero use case. All right. You know, we already have things like glossaries, which are to an extent that indexes are also to an extent that, but to make it an explicit thing. I mean, imagine Peter writing a thing about our conversation or whatever, sharing it with the group. Because annotations is talked about by so many groups all over the place. But let’s say we certainly are the ones to make it happen properly. Right? So he sends his document to to me, for instance, and I add further stuff or comment on that. And then later on you’ve had the original, but I send you one that has two sets of things on it. Systematically. That should be possible. Right. I think a lot of you’re basically just buying my whole PhD here. Because programmatically with databases and stuff, it can become really messy with versioning. But imagine if your annotations are listed as a visual appendices every time you add one on. Let’s say on a day before you share it. It’s one page. Or obviously it could be more than one, but it has one heading. Leon’s comments made this, this and this to these sections, and it’s in the visual meta referring to the document rather than in the document. Right. So it’s kind of markup or off. Then parsing system should easily be able to do things like delete everything by Leon. I don’t care about him or only show me Leon. All of that stuff should be possible.
Speaker9: Yeah.
Frode Hegland: And. And also.
Speaker4: Yeah.
Frode Hegland: An amazing thing here. So I think you just sold something because. Imagine. If. Peter. But okay, so I had I’ve had this vision of Danny working, and it’s really annoying because it’s something that should be possible. Danny working in her fully special environment, standing up, moving about all of that but pulling out text and putting it in places which are systems don’t really support yet, but so I can imagine that being supported by this, right? You select a stretch of text, you pull it off, and where you pull it is recorded right into this layer. So that means that when Peter gets her document like this, if she chooses to share it with that, he can then choose Danny exploded view.
Leon van Kammen: Yeah, I can see that. That happening. Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead. Ron. Oh, I was also thinking just to go on this example of sharing a PDF, a book written by Rob, but with an extra layer of more fluid data with my annotations, or where I pulled it out to which sentence, to which position you want to. The only thing missing is that we basically need to lock. The contents of. Oh. Rob and be thinking out of box. We should actually suggest that this ISBN number gets an update to ISBN number plus. Plus. It’s called a hash. And this hash is basically Rob’s whole book. All the text compressed to one big number. And this, this number is, it fits on, on one line. But if that the, the ISBN number is connected to this hash, then it’s a bit like a blockchain. Then you could actually just do one call to the internet like this ISBN number. Is that this hash? And then it says yes, that is the hash and ISBN number which Rob submitted or Rob’s publisher. And then and then your your reader or author knows that this whole text is legit and that the text below the visual meta can be edited. So that that’s the only thing sort of like this sort of like block. It’s not a, it’s not a block chain, but it’s more like the document as a block, a locked block, which was written by Rob. And the rest below it can be, you know, extended with visual meta written by students. Dini me, you and you can just switch between who’s visual meta. You’re. You want to see or not see? I can I can definitely imagine that.
Frode Hegland: Yeah, that makes.
Speaker4: All.
Leon van Kammen: This just to add to add to this idea is basically this problem is already solved in software. All software developers, they want to make sure that everybody is running the software they wrote and has not been tampered with. So they always give they can give an extra file, a checksum file or a hash file. And then if you unzip it, it it can be verified if that is actually the contents of the zip was actually as the developer intended. And it’s something like that could be used here as well to, to ensure that Rob’s book was not tampered with. And was not changed.
Frode Hegland: You mean the underlying or you mean the annotation on top?
Leon van Kammen: I just more mean that the book, all the text Rob wrote is locked is is cannot be edited. Because then the hash and the verification would not work anymore. But like all the annotations can be changed by, of course, by anybody. And they will always work because the original document is not changed. So the page numbers will always work out the you know, matching a sentence will always work out because the document is never changed. The document which Rob wrote is never changed. The real contents, the non metadata and.
Frode Hegland: Also the annotations. So the use cases that Dany shared with us, I don’t know where she wrote it. It may very well have been pages or word and exported to PDF. When I tried to copy some of that text it was very badly garbled, like we would expect with PDF. For some reason that does not happen to PDF exported by author. I think it’s simply because does less you know it’s trying to do less underneath. So what I’m thinking, you know, Mark helped me with my thesis, which was I’m going to have to start working on today. He’s done a lot of corrections. Goodness gracious. He’s put a lot of notes in the PDF. But if we have a an architecture here where anything that is done by the user is a visual meadow. Then it means that it doesn’t mess with the real documents so you can choose to. And also, finally, this is where your checksum thing comes in for me. Mark, for instance, is an expert in a field of hypertext. I’ve always wanted to subscribe to his documents, but what I can do with what you’re talking about is subscribe to his annotations. So also with music these days, it’s almost all DJs that are famous, not the individual musicians, at least for, you know, modern music, not pop music. So I can imagine here that When, let’s say, a new conference proceeding of hypertext comes out. We wait until Mark has gone through it. He will have annotated a few things on the different papers he thinks we would like. All we need to do is import those pages of metadata to our current documents. And That’s it. And then we have that.
Speaker4: Yeah, I.
Frode Hegland: Can do them or delete them.
Leon van Kammen: I can definitely imagine that one note. It’s very late here. I have to get up early tomorrow. I just wanted to hop on quickly, so. But now I have to go.
Frode Hegland: Unfortunately, no. That’s fine. I think it’s very, very late. Too early here. It’s 623 in the morning. I think we can safely leave the call here. I’m very grateful for this call that you guys showed up at these odd hours. Fabian was trying to, but didn’t become become practical. On Wednesday. I think I’m going to come to the normal call. The normal hours. I will just have to be up at midnight. That’s fine. Family holiday. It’s not a problem. I’ll send it out an email. But maybe one of the things we should talk about is. Hypertextual annotation layers. Should we call it that? Sounds good. I put that in our. Thank her once I can Okay. Yeah. All right, I’ll excuse everybody. Leon, thank you for being the reason we’re finishing early. We should do that. And Rob and Peter. Thank you, thank you. Look forward to seeing her Wednesday or Monday, whatever you can. We are now going to do Wednesday normal time.
Speaker4: All right. Okay.
Rob Swigart: That’s going to be tough for me. I’ve got an airport run at 430 okay.
Frode Hegland: All right. Well see you soon when we can rob. And we’ll make it happen that you can write in these ways.
Speaker4: Okay. Bye.
Chat log:
05:10:59 From Frode Hegland : https://www.theverge.com/2024/4/2/24118863/apple-vision-pro-spatial-persona-shareplay
05:12:04 From Frode Hegland : https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2023/10087/
05:47:14 From Frode Hegland : https://futuretextlab.info
05:57:37 From Frode Hegland : https://futuretextlab.info/interactions/
06:20:39 From Peter Wasilko : Assuming a man in the middle didn’t tamper with the checksum!
06:23:18 From Peter Wasilko : I am going to have to drop off at the bottom of the hour.