Video: https://youtu.be/YVGidL1B8cM
16:02:10 From Fabien Benetou to Everyone:
ironically didn’t manage to finish it!
16:05:17 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
I think it is very important to delineate the goals. as near as I can tell, there are several objectives running in parallel. Here is my attempt to define, working backwards: 1) in XR, I want to interact with a PDF (with my hands) so I can more comprehend the material more easily and intuitively than I can with a flat screen and a keyboard. 2) in XR, I want to synthesize other people’s material with my own impressions (even if just highlighting) and have the ability to restructure particles of content in a way that is more useful for me.
16:05:28 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
3) in XR, I want to be able to easily capture various particles and compositions and export them out of XR into an external medium (ex send to email). 4) in XR, I want to access a library of material and open one or more documents at a time. 5) in XR, I want to last state stored or someway to remind me what I was doing in my last session.
16:05:40 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
6) i want to be able to add material into a library that I can then access in XR. I want changes I make in XR to be stored in the library. 7) I want to be able to access an XR space without having to connect to external services. 8) I want to access CR while being offline.
16:05:49 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
This is not a complete list and probably wrong in several ways, but it is an attempt to break the big goal down. Several of these use cases overlap. They share themes. It would be a good exercise to clear up these overlaps so that we can start to speak with more precision about each part.
16:06:14 From Dene Grigar to Everyone:
Alan, speak this to the group. It is important
16:06:54 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
Replying to “Alan, speak this to …”
Thanks! But I want to hear about the print vs digital. Not totally unselfishly. I may have another grant idea for analog16:08:43 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
Let’s save implementation till later, no?
16:10:57 From Mark Anderson to Everyone:
@alan this chimes with my growing feeling that we need to re-imagine the document, in terms of its current primacy as an object. A doc is as easily just a render of various data. IOW, we pull away from the fixity of printing. The familiar print view is demoted to just be one of many possible renders. I think this frees us up to address better the issue of data to/from XR (indeed what travels).
16:11:44 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
Maybe we should review the OpenDoc literature.
16:11:44 From Dene Grigar to Everyone:
Yes, Mark. The question is what is the purpose of the text?
16:12:06 From Fabien Benetou to Everyone:
here is the example https://glitch.com/edit/#!/jxr-permanence that can be remixed
16:13:15 From Fabien Benetou to Everyone:
here is the “outcome” i.e the “flattened” version of a modified VR world https://jxr-permanence.glitch.me/flat where moved items become a sorted list
16:13:32 From Fabien Benetou to Everyone:
(that can be controlled immersively at https://jxr-permanence.glitch.me )
16:14:45 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
It is scary when you instantly recognize the current Unix millisecond timestamp!
16:18:43 From Fabien Benetou to Everyone:
(aren’t everybody watch or clock the UNIX timestamp? are there other formats? 😉
16:18:54 From Mark Anderson to Everyone:
Reacted to “(aren’t everybody wa…” with 🤣
16:20:09 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
@Fabien Benetou how is that new headset working out?
16:20:30 From Fabien Benetou to Everyone:
exactly
16:20:52 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
Reacted to “(aren’t everybody wa…” with 🤣
16:21:25 From Fabien Benetou to Everyone:
Reacted to “(aren’t everybody …” with 🤣
16:21:27 From Fabien Benetou to Everyone:
Removed a 🤣 from “(aren’t everybody …”
16:22:32 From Fabien Benetou to Everyone:
(example of the last session I just did https://jxr-permanence.glitch.me/saves/1702916447691 )
16:23:12 From Fabien Benetou to Everyone:
(basically a JSON of the moved elements, here code snippets but could be pages of documents, documents, etc)
16:26:11 From Fabien Benetou to Everyone:
Replying to “@Fabien Benetou ho…”
basically waiting on https://github.com/Igalia/wolvic/issues/1103#issuecomment-1857345990 because building the updated browser is quite a demanding process that I'd only do if truly needed. So.. hardware it still great, software still lagging behind, as expected.16:26:33 From Fabien Benetou to Everyone:
Github repo? issues there?
16:26:54 From Dene Grigar to Everyone:
We will have a Basecamp site for this project
16:26:56 From Fabien Benetou to Everyone:
(Github) repo allows for millestones
16:27:04 From Dene Grigar to Everyone:
We also have Slack for this grant
16:27:14 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
Well, user stories. But potato pohtoahto
16:28:25 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
GitHub is excellent for user stories as well. Not great for other product management type tasks but those may not be needed in this project
16:29:09 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
Slack would be a huge improvement over the twitter dm
16:29:42 From Mark Anderson to Everyone:
@peter are you thinking about things like the end point for DTDs and such?
16:29:57 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
@Mark Anderson Exactly!
16:31:12 From Mark Anderson to Everyone:
So, yes! That gives the work a life after the grant.
16:31:51 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
My goal, Frode, regarding the user stories, is simply to have this project deliver something on time remotely close to the goal
16:32:08 From Dene Grigar to Everyone:
+1
16:32:15 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
This tech just surfaced on my radar: https://pieces.app But the team behind it looks like it is a venture backed commercial play offering a free product with NO hint of a business model which makes me super nervous about using it.
16:33:42 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
For user stories, we could use Inform 7 to model a playable specification.
16:33:48 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
Suggestion, use slack and export to publshed history like future of Code: https://history.futureofcoding.org/
Its just a slack plugin
16:33:52 From Fabien Benetou to Everyone:
Mastodon (and the fediverse more broadly) allow most if not most of it technically speaking AFAIK for text snippets
16:34:00 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
https://ganelson.github.io/inform-website/
16:34:52 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
@Alan Laidlaw Do you have a future of coding url? That sounds like it is my forte!
16:34:58 From Dene Grigar to Everyone:
You can blog in Basecamp to your community
16:35:12 From Dene Grigar to Everyone:
Zoom is proprietary software
16:37:13 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
Replying to “@Alan Laidlaw Do you…”
Yes, you would love that crew16:37:15 From Fabien Benetou to Everyone:
FWIW 1 year ago https://mastodon.pirateparty.be/@utopiah/109523697391413683
16:37:49 From Fabien Benetou to Everyone:
i.e manipulating text snippet… directly on the fediverse thus social with (Web)XR optional
16:39:03 From Dene Grigar to Everyone:
We state in the grant that we are are using WebXR
16:39:23 From Fabien Benetou to Everyone:
on HTML in WebXR there are “dirty” and limited tricks https://github.com/AdaRoseCannon/aframe-htmlmesh but indeed not HTML proper
16:39:41 From Fabien Benetou to Everyone:
I’d argue enough for our usage anyway
16:39:50 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
https://laidlaw.craft.me/wW7Xy3GtsawIga]
16:40:10 From Dene Grigar to Everyone:
It is saying I can’t access it, Alan
16:40:21 From Fabien Benetou to Everyone:
Replying to “https://laidlaw.cr…”
"Document not found
We couldn’t load the document you were trying to open"16:40:35 From Rob Swigart to Everyone:
Same here
16:40:47 From Brandel Zachernuk to Everyone:
Reacted to “Same here” with ➕
16:40:59 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
Ditto on the doc
16:41:31 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
https://laidlaw.craft.me/futureoftext_user_story_sketches
16:41:50 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
That works!
16:42:02 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
Reacted to “https://laidlaw.craf…” with 🔥
16:42:12 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
Reacted to “https://laidlaw.craf…” with 🔥
16:42:13 From Dene Grigar to Everyone:
Yes, I have it now
16:43:32 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
Part 1: https://youtu.be/PxbmTfVYERQ
Part 2: https://youtu.be/PxbmTfVYERQ
16:43:38 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
Born on networking
16:43:45 From Mark Anderson to Everyone:
@Alan thanks. Seen online, not in my Craft client (yet), but no big deal.
16:45:25 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
Replying to “@Alan thanks. Seen o…”
I’ll need to move it to that craft space that ya’ll have access to.16:45:36 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
Replying to “@Alan thanks. Seen o…”
But this is just a temp location16:45:47 From Mark Anderson to Everyone:
Reacted to “I’ll need to move it…” with 👍🏻
16:47:39 From Mark Anderson to Everyone:
^^^ what Peter’s just describing is the same as I’ve been alluding to.
16:47:48 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
Reacted to “^^^ what Peter’s jus…” with 🔥
16:48:10 From Dene Grigar to Everyone:
nods
16:48:18 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
Reacted to “^^^ what Peter’s jus…” with 🔥
16:49:40 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
I like the isomorphic graphics.
16:49:50 From Dene Grigar to Everyone:
Me too
16:50:43 From Brandel Zachernuk to Everyone:
I’m surprised that architecture folks would go with isometric rather than axonometric projection
16:50:56 From Mark Anderson to Everyone:
Gigamapping: https://systemsorienteddesign.net/what-is-gigamapping/
16:51:04 From Brandel Zachernuk to Everyone:
(But I appreciate it, axo is ugly)
16:51:06 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
It almost looks like a Benediktine Cyberspace Spacial Unfolding at the top of that graphic.
16:51:30 From Mark Anderson to Everyone:
/Not necessarily source but seems to address subject bob mentioned.
16:51:47 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
https://bbycroft.net/llm
16:52:08 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
https://futuretextlab.info/2023/12/17/cc-11-dece-2023/
16:52:37 From Dene Grigar to Everyone:
Nice, Alan
16:53:37 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
I love short phrase Mnemonic identifiers so you can carry them in your head.
16:54:55 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
Standoff / Sidecar Metadata so you can annotate stuff trapped behind paywalls.
16:57:47 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
Persistent immutable data-structures are key to space efficient designs.
16:59:08 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
We need a Viewspec Spec!
17:05:57 From Dene Grigar to Everyone:
Document activity
17:06:02 From Dene Grigar to Everyone:
The person and what they did
17:06:30 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
An Event Stream
17:06:36 From Dene Grigar to Everyone:
yes
17:06:55 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
Maybe a Publish/Subscribe model.
17:06:57 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
Replying to “An Event Stream”
More please. What theme does event stream go to or is it a theme?17:07:11 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
I am thinking main library in one place, exactly
17:08:08 From Dene Grigar to Everyone:
Documenting the trace, is what we use to call that
17:08:35 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
Replying to “An Event Stream”
I’d want to know when library elements are copied/reorganized, annotated, added, deleted, and linked.17:09:24 From Dene Grigar to Everyone:
Nontrivial activites
17:10:44 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
And processes.
17:11:19 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
Maybe a Focus directive, to let the system know when to preserve high-fidelity low level data, eg Focus on my hands while handwriting vs. morph between standard hand positions 15 and 48 over 4 seconds.
17:11:21 From Mark Anderson to Everyone:
Semantic to ‘document’ , environment/construct, or both?
17:11:22 From Michael Bonfert to Everyone:
I’ll need to go. Enjoyable Holidays to everyone 🙂
17:12:04 From Dene Grigar to Everyone:
In hyper textual theory, nontrivial activities are those that cause the reader to become aware of the textual experience, or what Bolter and Grusin call hypermediacy
17:12:20 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
Reacted to “In hyper textual the…” with ❤️
17:13:21 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
I see a hierarchy of Event Streams so you could subscribe to the level of detail you care about, eg. Browsing in QA 76.6 vs reading the descriptions of particular books in that part of the collection.
17:13:46 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
Reacted to “In hyper textual the…” with ❤️
17:14:51 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
OH data mapped avatar clothing, I love it!
17:15:55 From Mark Anderson to Everyone:
Do we need a format-agnostic ‘minimal viable data wrapper’ for testing 2D/XR transfer. Something like a DOCX file, AI, PDF, etc., is just a part of the data payload in this context.
17:16:04 From Fabien Benetou to Everyone:
example of exact same code self hosted as container on own server XR https://jxr-permanence.benetou.fr JSON DB https://jxr-permanence.benetou.fr/saves 2D https://jxr-permanence.benetou.fr/flat
17:16:33 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
Reacted to “Do we need a format-…” with ❤️
17:16:50 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
Maybe use this Craft as official? Is nice…
17:17:42 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
https://futuretextlab.info
17:18:00 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
Replying to “Do we need a format-…”
Exactly, the wrapper should just be a Well Know Symbol like ‘JSON’ or a URI for a format spec so the user doesn’t have to infer the data type from the payload content.17:18:59 From Mark Anderson to Everyone:
I think academic PDFs tend to live at the bottom of the PDF ability stack.
17:19:18 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
Replying to “I think academic PDF…”
Sad but true.17:19:49 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
Give me the PDF’s LaTeX Source Code bundle!
17:20:33 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
PDF’s should point to their source code in their Visual Meta.
17:20:49 From Mark Anderson to Everyone:
@ peter – sadly the source is not normally 3rd party accessible 😞
17:21:50 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
What do we mean by documents already be 3D-able? Interesting to discuss
17:22:03 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
(Away for 2 mins, sorry)
17:24:30 From Dene Grigar to Everyone:
We did not define PDF in the grant
17:24:37 From Fabien Benetou to Everyone:
Reacted to “We did not define …” with 👍
17:24:39 From Dene Grigar to Everyone:
We left it open on purpose
17:24:45 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
excellent
17:24:50 From Mark Anderson to Everyone:
Reacted to “We left it open on p…” with 👏🏻
17:25:00 From Dene Grigar to Everyone:
Academic is the key concept
17:25:08 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
I want to verbally enhance photos like Harrison Ford did in Blade Runner!
17:25:17 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
I’m excited about lipsticking on a PDF
17:25:25 From Mark Anderson to Everyone:
Reacted to “I’m excited about li…” with 🤣
17:25:32 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
Reacted to “We left it open on p…” with 👏🏻
17:26:22 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
Reacted to “I’m excited about li…” with 🤣
17:27:00 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
Ghost of xmas future of text
17:29:05 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
Indeed, thinking cap, not reading room
17:29:17 From Dene Grigar to Everyone:
Hi edgar
17:29:29 From Fabien Benetou to Everyone:
(I also have to run in a minute)
17:30:05 From Dene Grigar to Everyone:
brb
17:32:12 From Leon van Kammen to Everyone:
I’ve gotta go too
17:32:13 From Leon van Kammen to Everyone:
byebye!
17:32:34 From Mark Anderson to Everyone:
We few, we happy few…
17:33:31 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
How about ‘prepping’ a traditional document in 2D to extract in XR?
17:33:54 From Mark Anderson to Everyone:
The study underlying the article Bob posted
17:36:17 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
I am almost out of charge, turning off my video to save power!
17:37:01 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
Scanning, reading, folding, ai summary as folding text.
17:37:12 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
Reacted to “Scanning, reading, f…” with 🔥
17:37:24 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
This is in line with my focus the last few months. And I would love to explore it in this space.
17:37:41 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
But focused (for the time being) on reading, not writing
17:39:05 From Brandel Zachernuk to Everyone:
VSTF! https://codepen.io/zachernuk/full/dYaOxM
17:39:38 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
That’s right! I ‘invented it’ based on having been inspired by that and forgetting!
17:40:12 From Brandel Zachernuk to Everyone:
I’d be really curious about understanding if/how it maps to other languages, but it’s consistently helpful for me in English
17:41:31 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
For year 1: Maybe divide Computer and XR to have XR be views and Computer be work/change/prep?
17:42:01 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
‘Literally’ make the headset only a thinking cap
17:42:04 From Peter Wasilko to Everyone:
I am going to drop off now so I can exit cleanly. Have a great week and Merry Christmas!
17:42:18 From Mark Anderson to Everyone:
Bye Peter. Happy Xmas
17:42:21 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
Reacted to “I am going to drop o…” with ❤️
17:42:32 From Brandel Zachernuk to Everyone:
Bye Peter, merry Christmas!
17:48:21 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
Library and reading on computer, selecting something and headset for instant view of that text. In context
17:50:28 From Mark Anderson to Everyone:
I meant to add the Mintter experiment we’re doing is using a system with fine grained addressability—and provenance. The later as the app had a start relating to micro-payments. Payments not relevant for us, but it means prov is already there at a low level. Also the system uses federated data so a change from the server-centric world.
17:51:34 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
Replying to “I meant to add the M…”
Did you talk a Horatio about this? I forgot to talk with him17:52:22 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
Mark, do you mind a second?
17:53:25 From Brandel Zachernuk to Everyone:
If folks haven’t seen Bret Victor’s biology lab idea, it’s interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gXiVOmaVSo&t=869s
17:53:38 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
Yea, good inspiration, thanks
17:54:16 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
Visual-Meta likes to be local. And also likes links
17:55:40 From Rob Swigart to Everyone:
I want to enter Bob’s GIGA map and walk or fly around it, approaching and retreating for narrower or wider views.
17:56:01 From Mark Anderson to Everyone:
Reacted to “I want to enter Bob’…” with 👍🏻
17:56:16 From Mark Anderson to Everyone:
Viewspecs is a concept worth dusting off.
17:56:19 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
How to get the metadata from Reader (or any ‘computer’ software with documents) to XR software? Everything about the document we want to send across….
17:58:09 From Brandel Zachernuk to Everyone:
And Papeos (paper+video) is a useful way of understanding that amalgam: https://papeo.app
17:59:38 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
+1
18:00:36 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
Replying to “And Papeos (paper+vi…”
whoah18:00:43 From Rob Swigart to Everyone:
Google Earth for documents
18:01:21 From Mark Anderson to Everyone:
I have to go in c. 5mins.
18:01:44 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
OK, me too
18:06:09 From Frode Hegland to Everyone:
If we go with this then we can always change to non-local later right?
18:10:33 From Alan Laidlaw to Everyone:
Brandel, I’m sure there’s a link to your inky work. Frode, where can I find it on the FoT site?
18:11:16 From Mark Anderson to Everyone:
Sorry, I’m called away. Happy Christmas all!
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