AI: Summary
The meeting focused on discussing a new interface concept called “unfolded” that allows users to expand documents horizontally to reveal different aspects of the content such as references, names, timelines, etc.
Frode Hegland and Ge Li/Jessi presented this concept to Mark Anderson and Fabien Bénétou, with much of the discussion centering on how to balance structured organization (column/grid views) with spatial freedom.
The concept involves a matrix or spreadsheet-like layout where users can extract data from documents and manipulate it in various ways.
Mark Anderson raised important questions about how this approach would work with complex authoring processes and spatial arrangement of knowledge. Fabien Bénétou began implementing a prototype during the meeting.
The discussion explored the tension between rigid scaffolding and free spatial arrangement, with particular attention to making the interface useful for both reading and authoring.
Frode Hegland, Ge Li, Mark Anderson, Fabien Bénétou
AI: Decisions
The group decided to explore the “unfolded” concept further, which allows users to pull documents sideways to reveal additional aspects like references, names, and other structured information.
The proposed matrix/spreadsheet approach was identified as a useful scaffolding that should not become a “prison” – users should be able to transition between structured views and free spatial arrangements.
It was determined that columns should be able to be pulled out, reorganized, and sorted independently.
They decided users should be able to clone columns to view the same data with different sorting methods.
The group agreed to prioritize both reading and authoring use cases for this interface.
They decided to include a “scratch space” column where users can jot down ideas that can easily be pulled into the spatial environment.
Fabien would continue developing a prototype implementing some of these ideas.
The group would revisit this discussion with Dene Grigar who was not present at the meeting.
AI: Speaker Summary
Frode Hegland: Frode presented the “unfolded” concept, showing how documents could be expanded horizontally to reveal different aspects like references, names, timelines, etc. He emphasized the value of column-based views for skimmability while allowing flexible sorting and filtering. Frode was excited about the potential for this interface to work for both reading and authoring, suggesting that users should be able to pull out specific elements for focus while maintaining context. He acknowledged the importance of balancing structured organization with spatial freedom and was particularly interested in the idea of a “scratch space” column for capturing ideas. Frode credited Sarah Walton with inspiring the concept and kept referring to the approach as a “matrix” or “hyper spreadsheet.”
Ge Li: Ge was visiting London and joined the meeting with Frode. She commented briefly, mostly responding to greetings from others, and mentioned enjoying the sunshine in London.
Mark Anderson: Mark raised important questions about how the proposed interface would work with complex authoring processes that involve jumping between different sources. He was concerned about maintaining context while focusing on particular elements and emphasized the importance of being able to see the relationships between different objects in space. Mark drew on his experience working with complex information systems and argued for the need to reduce visual clutter through symbols and proxies. He questioned whether the rigid column structure might constrain spatial thinking and stressed that authoring often involves assembling ideas from multiple sources rather than working with a single document. Mark also emphasized the need for quick transitions between different views and contexts.
Fabien Bénétou: Fabien responded to Frode’s presentation with interest but measured enthusiasm. He focused on the implementation aspects, beginning to code a prototype during the meeting. He shared a screenshot of his work in progress and described his approach of mapping items (text sections) to functions to understand the requirements better. Fabien introduced the useful term “spatial scaffolding” which the group adopted to describe the balance between structure and freedom in the interface. He appeared particularly interested in the functionality that would allow users to customize and control how the interface behaves.
AI: Topics Discussed
WebXR: Fabien Bénétou was actively working on implementing a prototype of the “unfolded” concept in WebXR during the meeting. He shared a screenshot of his progress, showing how content could be snapped to panels in 3D space. The implementation involved adapting existing code related to “snap to panel” functionality. Frode expressed excitement that the concept was working within Fabien’s WebXR constructs.
Gestures: The group discussed various gesture interactions for the interface, including pinching to fold content together, pinching at the top of a column to trigger special views (like a map for places), and using gestures to pull content out to the side. Mark Anderson questioned whether pinch gestures would be the most efficient interaction method for the tasks described, suggesting that toggling columns on and off might be more practical for actual work.
Timelines: Timelines were mentioned as one of the potential aspects that could be extracted from a document and displayed in a separate column in the “unfolded” interface. Frode briefly showed an example of a timeline extracted from the “Seven Hypertexts” paper as a demonstration of what might be possible with this approach.
Spatial Hypertext: Mark Anderson discussed the nature of spatial hypertext and how it differs from web hypertext. He emphasized that spatial hypertext often works without visible links, contrary to Ted Nelson’s original vision, since links can become visually intrusive when there are too many. Mark mentioned he was writing a paper on the topic and noted that modern understandings of hypertext are often limited to web pages.
Document Structure and Knowledge Representation: The group discussed how to represent and interact with document structures in spatial environments, including how to extract and display different aspects of content (body text, headings, references, names, etc.).
Matrix/Spreadsheet Interface: Much of the discussion centered on the proposed matrix or spreadsheet-like interface for documents, with columns representing different aspects of the content.
Annotated Bibliographies: The group discussed how their approach might be particularly useful for creating and working with annotated bibliographies, allowing for different ways of sorting and viewing references.
AI Integration: Frode briefly mentioned how AI could be integrated into the system, with the ability for users to choose whether to use external AI calls, logic, or local programs for specific functionality.
AI: Concepts Introduced
Matrix/Hyper Spreadsheet: Frode Hegland introduced this concept to describe the column-based interface where different aspects of a document (body text, headings, references, etc.) could be displayed and manipulated. He described it as “a hyper spreadsheet” that provides flexible organization of document elements.
Unfolded: Frode Hegland introduced this as the name for the concept they were discussing, where documents can be pulled out horizontally to reveal additional aspects or views.
Spatial Scaffolding: Fabien Bénétou introduced this term, which the group adopted to describe the balance between structured organization and spatial freedom in the interface. Frode particularly appreciated this term for expressing how rigid structures could support more flexible spatial arrangements.
Productive Propinquity: Mark Anderson used this term to describe the value of spatial arrangements in supporting serendipitous connections between ideas through proximity rather than explicit links.
Spatial Hypertext: Mark Anderson discussed this concept, distinguishing it from web hypertext and noting that it often involves arrangements without visible links, contrary to Ted Nelson’s original hypertext vision. He emphasized that most people today think of hypertext only in terms of web pages.
AI: People Mentioned
Les Carr: Mentioned by Frode and Mark as a friend and advisor who emphasized that references should be “a first class object, not something stuck in the back.”, Mentioned by Mark as getting excited about gathering people together, Mentioned by Frode as someone Mark went to see.
Sarah Walton: Mentioned by Frode as someone who inspired the “unfolded” concept.
Jesse: Mentioned by Frode several times as someone he was discussing machine learning/intelligence with, and who was helping him understand local LLMs from an ethical perspective. Also mentioned as leaving on the 29th.
Dene Grigar: Mentioned by Mark regarding a planned walkthrough/meeting that was having logistical difficulties. Mentioned by Frode as arriving on the 30th and leaving on the 7th, later referred to as a Co-PI on the project.
Wendy: Mentioned by Mark in the context of the planned walkthrough with Dene.
Kathy Marshall: Mentioned by Mark as having worked on spatial hypertext in 1993.
Ted Nelson: Mentioned by Mark in the context of hypertext history, specifically his insistence on visible links in Xanadu.
Dave Miller: Mentioned by Frode as an example of someone who might provide feedback on his thesis.
AI: Product or Company Names Mentioned
ChatGPT: Mentioned by Frode in the context of saying that their approach to AI integration wasn’t just about “ChatGPT happy days.”
Xanadu: Mentioned by Mark Anderson when discussing Ted Nelson’s hypertext system that emphasized visible links.
Groucho: Mentioned by Frode as a place where he and Jesse had been earlier that day discussing AI implementation.
Author: Mentioned by Frode multiple times as a software tool he uses for writing and organizing text, including features for outlining and annotating.
Reader: Mentioned by Frode in the context of AI implementation and integration with Author.
AI: Agreements & Disagreements
Agreements:
Mark and Frode agreed on the importance of separating reading sources from authoring spaces while maintaining connections between them.
The group agreed that users should be able to extract and manipulate columns independently.
Everyone agreed that the interface should support both structured organization and spatial freedom.
Mark and Frode agreed that a “scratch space” column would be useful for jotting down ideas.
The group agreed that the term “spatial scaffolding” was a useful way to describe the balance between structure and freedom.
Disagreements:
Mark questioned whether pinch gestures would be the most efficient interaction method, suggesting that toggling columns on and off might be more practical.
There was some tension between Frode’s enthusiasm for the column-based approach and Mark’s concerns about how it might constrain spatial thinking.
Fabien seemed less enthusiastic about the concept than Frode, though he was actively implementing a prototype.
Mark and Frode had slightly different mental models of how elements would be organized in space, leading to some confusion when Frode talked about “background” elements.
AI: Other
The meeting took place in a coffee shop in London where Frode and Ge were visiting, while Mark and Fabien joined remotely. There were some technical challenges with battery life and internet connectivity due to the location.
The conversation revealed the group’s ongoing tension between structured organization and spatial freedom, which seems to be a central theme in their exploration of knowledge representation in spatial computing.
Frode mentioned that this discussion was continuing from a meeting on Monday, and there was reference to a summary of that meeting being available.
The meeting had a friendly, collaborative atmosphere despite disagreements, with participants acknowledging the value in having different perspectives.
Fabien was actively implementing a prototype during the meeting, showing the group’s commitment to testing ideas quickly rather than just discussing them theoretically.
Unfolded Image
Post-Meeting
Mark Anderson subsequently added this image of his take on the concept to the Slack channel:
