16:01:20 From Frode Hegland : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gEXTp1xW__uzkD-JJ-yEzQbHiW2QDTc4FhDDtt7M3kI/edit?usp=sharing
16:02:36 From Fabien : https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cunningham%27s_Law
16:03:44 From Matthias Müller-Prove : As it seems we just lost all the women.
16:04:16 From Frode Hegland : yes, not brilliant Matthias
16:16:52 From Jack Park : @petercho – my text game SenseCraft is about civil conversations
16:17:14 From Fabien : https://www.sekund.io
16:18:29 From Frode Hegland : GoLive was the best ever, in my mind
16:18:39 From Jack Park : https://sensecraft.garden/ still at the engineering prototype stage – not ready for public consumption
16:18:41 From Frode Hegland : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gEXTp1xW__uzkD-JJ-yEzQbHiW2QDTc4FhDDtt7M3kI/edit?usp=sharing
16:18:44 From Matthias Müller-Prove : My home: https://mprove.de/
16:21:08 From Matthias Müller-Prove : Vision & Reality
of Hypertext and Graphical User Interfaces :: https://mprove.de/visionreality/text/contents.html
16:22:06 From Matthias Müller-Prove : Cultural time travel :: https://mprove.de/chronolab/
16:25:57 From Lorenzo Bianchi : yes, we go way back : )
16:25:58 From Frode Hegland : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gEXTp1xW__uzkD-JJ-yEzQbHiW2QDTc4FhDDtt7M3kI/edit?usp=sharing
16:28:54 From Mark Anderson (Portsmouth, UK) : @ Matthias – love the Chronolab.
16:29:54 From Matthias Müller-Prove : 😊
16:30:44 From Frode Hegland : Yes, capture more metadata 😉
16:31:01 From Frode Hegland : as automatically as possible. Spy on ourselves
16:31:59 From Frode Hegland : Douglas Adams called an aspect of this virtual graffiti. Not the same, but taking space into account
16:33:04 From Frode Hegland To Brandel Zachernuk(privately) : how is Heather?
16:33:33 From Frode Hegland : Indeed, also very reverent of the written word 🙂
16:42:15 From Fabien : https://mastodon.pirateparty.be/@utopiah/109523697391413683
16:45:45 From Fabien : for 2023 I’ll be the Rafael of XR for AI, kind skeptic
16:45:56 From Frode Hegland : AI chat is simply autocorrect on steroids. in a way…
16:46:52 From Frode Hegland : is long form better?..
16:47:24 From Frode Hegland : large screens make video a different thing. Same with text?
16:47:35 From Frode Hegland : hi Daveed
16:48:23 From Peter Wasilko : The Chris North who got his degree from the University of Maryland at College Park’s HCIL Lab?
16:48:24 From Daveed Benjamin : Hi fFode!HNY
16:57:14 From Frode Hegland : Highly recommend using speaker mode in Zoom BTW. rather than all one one screen 🙂
16:59:07 From Daveed Benjamin To Frode Hegland(privately) : Looking now
16:59:15 From Fabien : https://www.sherryturkle.com/reclaiming-conversation
17:00:23 From Fabien : and trying to reconsider a “new format” without its (IMHO abusing) platform https://video.benetou.fr/w/p/hfPcHz1kCgnM6zKhfPrS4b
17:00:34 From Peter Wasilko : @Frode, do you have a url for the book?
17:00:53 From Fabien : (and the importance of UX https://knightcolumbia.org/blog/tiktoks-secret-sauce )
17:01:07 From Frode Hegland : https://www.amazon.co.uk/Connectome-How-Brains-Wiring-Makes/dp/0241951879/ref=sr_1_1?crid=25VIG2BMJGE2S&keywords=connectome&qid=1673024455&sprefix=connectome%2Caps%2C82&sr=8-1 Connectome
17:02:07 From Peter Wasilko : @Frode, thanks!
17:03:28 From Peter Wasilko : https://www.amazon.com/Architecture-Intelligence-Information-Technology-Revolution/dp/3764364513
17:04:13 From Jack Park : have to run!
17:04:21 From Frode Hegland : Later Jack
17:07:11 From Frode Hegland : ‘returning to something’ what a wonderful aspect
17:08:04 From Frode Hegland : Importance of civility. And I’d say, also eage
17:08:06 From Frode Hegland : rage
17:10:19 From Lorenzo Bianchi : “epistemologically challenged” – spot on
17:10:27 From Peter Cho : +1
17:11:50 From Frode Hegland : by rage I mean strong emphasis. News websites with same headings no matter what, is numbing.
17:18:25 From Peter Flynn : Sadly I must run. Let’s do more of this. Keep well!
17:18:29 From Frode Hegland : Peter Flynn wrote in the Google doc how he would prefer better email. Might that be a model? Email mixed with Instant Message plus more context recorded and cleaner and richer ways to browse?
17:18:35 From Frode Hegland : About to bring up you Peter 🙂
17:18:37 From Frode Hegland : later
17:19:16 From Mark Anderson (Portsmouth, UK) : An issue with ‘rage’ is we tend to be more excusing of our own rage than that of others, especially if in disagreement with them. This implies a disconnected PoV/context. Context, a shared context, keeps coming up.
17:20:02 From Frode Hegland : Indeed Mark. But text can often seem emotionally flattened of course too
17:20:22 From Fabien : 2 distinct problems iMHO, proper citation then verifiability
17:21:56 From Mark Anderson (Portsmouth, UK) : I know work is being done on provenance (XML ‘prov’). IIRC the state of the art is to get the same extracted prov twice over, even using the same tool. I take that to mean there’s a bit more research to be done.
17:24:22 From Frode Hegland : Our focus is on thoughtful conversation on any topic, just to remind
17:26:10 From Karl Hebenstreit, Jr. : Three arguments why we need the believing game: to help us find flaws in our thinking, to help us choose among competing claims, and to achieve goals that the doubting game neglects. https://trace.tennessee.edu/do/search/?q=believing%20game&start=0&context=4046756&facet=
17:28:33 From Frode Hegland : So; might a well designed email and well accessible to search/browse email mailing list be a model? Also, what is the appetite to continue this conversation? Maybe monthly?
17:33:48 From Candide Kemmler : Love the idea of improving agency
17:34:19 From Mark Anderson (Portsmouth, UK) : I like Fabien’s point about merging the (asynchronous) tempo of email with the more immediate (twitter, mastodon, FB, etc…). Even as an individual we may shift contextually between wanting to be live vs consuming in a more considered fashion.
17:36:59 From Karl Hebenstreit, Jr. : Jamie Joyce’s quest! https://www.societylibrary.org/team AND an Internet Archive project, Democracy’s Library
17:37:00 From Mark Anderson (Portsmouth, UK) : Trigg’s thesis isn’t available in full, but i think it is summed up here: https://www.eastgate.com/HypertextNow/archives/Trigg.html
17:37:59 From Karl Hebenstreit, Jr. : Introducing Democracy’s Library: http://blog.archive.org/2022/10/19/announcing-democracys-library/
17:39:56 From Stephanie Strickland : I know a lot of people who will be immediately put off by someone telling them they need to be “trained” and the speaker is the one who will “train”.
17:40:05 From Frode Hegland : Can we build a way to write and share and cite/link documents? Should we? How can we ‘link’ the tempo? How best to have these meetings available in the future and how best to write thoughtful, linked pieces? Can you write me a piece on this? Can you write it in a way which models what you feel, to share before next meeting?
17:41:06 From Brandel Zachernuk : I appreciated your dance @Mattias!
17:41:20 From Peter Wasilko : Best Education Book : Grasp: The Science of Transforming How We Learn
17:41:35 From Fabien : (FWIW Matthias some of my holiday notes was about binding movements to variables for code in VR so dancing would definitely be worth exploring)
17:43:16 From Daveed Benjamin : That’s like Roam
17:43:25 From Matthias Müller-Prove : @Peter Cho :: yes –– collect all those cases and examples (reddit, twitter) and distill the best stuff that works. I am just reluctant that the system will have too many constraints and it is not fun to use anymore.
17:43:38 From Daveed Benjamin : What if the email and the document can be connected?
17:44:01 From Chris Gebhardt : Everything should be the same space. No apps, channels, or protocols.
17:44:34 From Matthias Müller-Prove : @Peter Cho :: The community rules in reddit remind me on the Norman Door. If you have to apply PUSH/PULL stickers, then something is wrong in the first place.
17:44:35 From Peter Cho : @Mattias Totally – it needs to be “fun”
17:44:53 From Daveed Benjamin : Maybe parts of the communication work better in email vs document. We have both because they have prescribed uses.
17:45:01 From Fabien : Ah, he said Web! 😀
17:45:09 From Fabien : (I did stay silent there I admit)
17:45:55 From Peter Wasilko : We need to be able to add anchors that are seamlessly typeable.
17:46:10 From Matthias Müller-Prove : @Peter Cho Ja_”fun” in the sense of ease-of-use.
17:47:48 From Chris Gebhardt : content based addressing solves all
17:48:00 From Frode Hegland : IT DOES!
17:48:01 From Frode Hegland : 🙂
17:48:15 From Frode Hegland : You know about the Visual-Meta approach right?
17:48:34 From Frode Hegland : https://visual-meta.info
17:49:01 From Matthias Müller-Prove : Doug’s Dreaming of the Future in byte/1995 :: “…Draft notes, E-mail, plans, source code, to-do lists, what have you — all can be hyperdocument pieces, instantly and intrinsically linkable…” :: https://mprove.de/script/95/engelbart/index.html
17:49:10 From Peter Wasilko : Does anyone know how to get Bookends to search for references on academia.edu?
17:53:36 From Frode Hegland : the visual-meta approach can include in-text code as Peter alluded to, to allow for some of his approach. Hmmm… We can have our own ‘code glossaries’ ! (linking to documents on desktop is HARD. might have to build libraries/RM/databases to do document to document linking (surface, interface)
17:54:14 From Mark Anderson (Portsmouth, UK) : @ Peter W, use Bookends’ built in (web) browser, which is an option in search. I accept it may be little better than a web browser. If you want an API approach I suspect that’s a Bookends feature request. Bookends’ choice of search choices is a close list AFAICT.
17:55:21 From Peter Wasilko : @Mark, thanks, I grabbed several hundred papers on World’s Fairs from academia.edu and getting the meta data into Bookends has been painful.
17:56:17 From Frode Hegland : Please watch this when you can. It’s 1 minute long, from the 1990s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Orhy5kzr6Xw
17:56:50 From Matthias Müller-Prove : @Mark et al. You might enjoy this ChronoLink https://mprove.de/chrono?q=-0.02864,0.00551&z=8.32&m=IFbyte-magazine-1995-09-357&d=1&s=1&iiif-content=https://iiif.archivelab.org/iiif/byte-magazine-1995-09/manifest.json
17:57:40 From Mark Anderson (Portsmouth, UK) : @PerterW I guess Bookends browser will be looking for RIS or BibTeX in the source. If that’s clean you should get a good extract. Still, I’m nerdy enough to manually review all my reference inputs. My Bookends has a lot of macros flagging up possible errors & omissions.
17:59:15 From Peter Wasilko : I will probably just have to manually build out all the citations, only a few are popping up in Bookends search endpoints.