Chat Log : 3 July 2023


16:01:20 From Frode Hegland :
16:02:21 From Frode Hegland :
16:11:38 From Frode Hegland :
16:13:17 From Frode Hegland : Prototype email, likely will not send, but sets tone:
16:13:33 From Frode Hegland : Did not copy, argh
16:13:58 From Frode Hegland : At this time of information overload, online misinformation and the coming of AI, how we manage our information and communication becomes a matter of national priority as I’m sure you agree.

Simply, if we truly value knowledge, we must also value how knowledge is created, stored, shared, accessed & interacted with.

It is also clear that the written word plays a crucial part of our communication, from texting teens to laws and letters, with very little innovation with how we interact with knowledge in textual form beyond the weblink over 20 years ago.

I run a research initiative called ‘The Future of Text’ which has been hosting an annual Symposium on the future of text for over a decade and over the last 3 years we have been publishing a series of books on the future of text. Additionally, we build software to experiment to experience different ways to interact with knowledge in textual form.
16:14:03 From Frode Hegland : The work is in collaboration with Vint Cerf, co-inventor of the Internet, Ismail Serageldin, founder of the Modern Library of Alexandria, with advisors including Barbara Tversky, author of ‘Mind in Motion’, Bob Stein, co-founder of The Voyager Company, the first commercial multimedia CD-ROM publisher, Bruce Horn, programmer of the original Finder in the original Macintosh Dene Grigar,former President of the Electronic Literature Organization, Howard Rheingold, author of ‘Tools for Thought’ and educator, Jane Yellowlees Douglas, pioneer author &scholar of hypertext fiction, Livia Polanyi, theoretical linguist & Consulting Professor of Linguistics at Stanford University and Ted Nelson pioneer and cinder of the term ‘Hypertext’.
16:14:08 From Frode Hegland : As a Norwegian who has been living in Britain and has a British wife and six year old son, I feel strongly that this is something we should invest in to really improve how we can get to grips with the future of one of the most important media for thought and communication. Our research group has spent the last year working on the future of text in VR/AR and we are also investigating how AI can augment our thinking, rather than replace it.

There are initiatives for dealing with AI, which is important.

What I propose is a ‘Manhattan Project’ level effort for researching, developing and implementing how we interact with text.
16:14:18 From Frode Hegland : Still images, video, 3D and audio will all play a part with how we communicate and is all receiving investment from various parties, but there is very little effort for the most powerful system of symbolic commutation; ’text’.

If you search online for ’the future of text’ almost all the results will be me, a private person hosting a limited initiative. That should worry you. The written word deserves much more attention, and not only from software development companies with their own agenda.

Climate change of the natural environment is a challenge for our generation. I would say that tackling the issues in our information environment is a crucial component of how we deal with any challenge, and the support needs to be commensurate.

Will the British government support this effort to some degree?

For more information, please have a look at
16:15:23 From Peter Wasilko :
16:19:49 From Frode Hegland :
16:20:45 From Frode Hegland : My coffee is way to strong, need some milk!!! Back in 2 mins…
16:22:06 From Frode Hegland : back.saved
16:23:16 From Frode Hegland : I think we should experiment more with ‘do’ AI, rather than ‘tell me’ AI in this community. What do you think?
16:24:15 From Frode Hegland : ditto
16:31:56 From Alan Laidlaw : I’m more interested in exploring primitives (or spatial computing) via WEbXr over Apple’s device.
16:32:09 From Peter Wasilko : Reacted to “I’m more interested …” with ❤️
16:36:06 From Peter Wasilko : Here is a link of a conference series on the business of selling software: with lots of videos and podcasts.
16:36:19 From Leon van Kammen : @Alan agreed, the great thing about WebXR that it’s a nice ‘common immersive highway’ across all headsets
16:37:34 From Fabien Benetou : for ref game I mentioned
16:52:58 From Frode Hegland : Adam Reader
16:53:48 From Adam Wern : Peter: I’ve experimented quite now a bit with extrusion, and readability from angles (and backwards) in webxr
16:57:33 From Alan Laidlaw : speaker sees speaker notes. 3rd person sees presentation
17:00:41 From Alan Laidlaw : Brandel, if you have it in front of you, can you post a link to that again?
17:01:12 From Peter Wasilko : I don’t really have a bottomless mug, mum has been refilling my tea off camera.
17:01:22 From Brandel Zachernuk :
17:01:32 From Brandel Zachernuk : Reacted to “I don’t really have …” with 😂
17:01:35 From Frode Hegland : Currently suggested people to invite:
17:01:37 From Alan Laidlaw : 😂
17:01:50 From Alan Laidlaw : (re Peter’s magic cup)
17:04:37 From Adam Wern : And inside Reading: Skimming vs (deep) reading
17:06:13 From Peter Wasilko : Can add David Small to the list of people to approach?
17:06:20 From Peter Wasilko :
17:06:44 From Peter Wasilko : He did work on text in 3-D at the MIT Media Lab back in the 90’s.
17:06:55 From Frode Hegland : Can you email me Peter, including the details for the spreadsheet?
17:06:59 From Alan Laidlaw : omar rizwan if he hasn’t already spoken
17:07:09 From Peter Wasilko : Will do
17:07:15 From Frode Hegland : Omar is in the book
17:07:30 From Frode Hegland : Please email suggestions for ease of following
17:09:58 From Peter Wasilko : I wonder if when the times comes Brandel can swing us all “Brilliant Researcher” discounts on the Vision Pro.
17:13:09 From Adam Wern : What’s that printer you showed?
17:13:23 From Adam Wern : CAT QR something?
17:13:46 From Alan Laidlaw : “cat printer” its like $23
17:14:00 From Alan Laidlaw : may not be the best option, still testing
17:14:43 From Brandel Zachernuk : We have a poooli (3 o’s) parrot printer similarly, it’s great
17:15:00 From Alan Laidlaw : oh! thinks!
17:15:02 From Alan Laidlaw : thanks
17:15:23 From Frode Hegland : Of course, also the opposite, going complete out of world. Both 🙂
17:15:41 From Adam Wern : I like the idea of using your phone as an extra agent for you (in Zoom, in a bespoke webXR app, etc)
17:16:48 From Alan Laidlaw : a thought about Wolfram’s point about cellular automata
17:16:53 From Adam Wern : We all could join twice here – as in Adam (phone cam), to show books and more
17:18:18 From Alan Laidlaw :
17:19:18 From Peter Wasilko : What is an April Tag?
17:19:31 From Peter Wasilko : @Frode, email sent
17:19:39 From Peter Wasilko : With bio blurb
17:20:32 From Brandel Zachernuk : This is the one I have:
17:22:02 From Alan Laidlaw : awesome! the folks suggested these but pico seems more my speed
17:22:04 From Alan Laidlaw : We recommend the AAXA 4K1 (~$800, available refurbished only) for the brightest, clearest text rendering and largest area.
If you’re on a budget or want a more portable option, the AAXA P400 ($269) is a good option for a portable 1080p projector.
Any projector will do, but any projector with a native resolution of less than 1080p will only be good for projecting shapes & very large text.
17:22:56 From Brandel Zachernuk : Yeah mine’s not 1080p, so it doesn’t have the detail for fine type
17:23:54 From Fabien Benetou : can recommend
17:25:59 From Adam Wern : I’m all for a deep diving into something specific for text & XR, like hand<->text, skimming/navigation, deep reading, etc and do some prototypes inside that
17:26:13 From Peter Wasilko : @Alan Laidlaw What is that book titled Pixel on your shelf about?
17:28:04 From Peter Wasilko :
17:29:10 From Peter Wasilko : Do you have a full cite?
17:30:38 From Frode Hegland : Spark points and each of us write topics or human prompts for the web site. Focus on intuition and learning, thinking, not academia, using VR and AI.
17:31:47 From Peter Wasilko : I have been excavating the wayback machine to read up on The Optimist alternate reality game, which was part of the marketing for the Tomorrow Land film.
17:32:23 From Alan Laidlaw :
17:32:31 From Fabien Benetou : Reacted to “https://alanlaidla…” with 👀
17:33:09 From Peter Wasilko : It was very much a what if all the greatest minds alive circa the 1964 World’s Fair got together for a grand team up.
17:33:52 From Adam Wern : Spatial Text?
17:34:12 From Alan Laidlaw : spacial cognition even
17:34:19 From Fabien Benetou : Alan: I’d add 2 rods to facilitate skimming
17:34:19 From Adam Wern : Reacted to “spacial cognition ev…” with 👍
17:34:33 From Fabien Benetou : on each side of the desk
17:35:01 From Frode Hegland : The real need we have is to augment intuition and understanding, that’s for sure
17:35:07 From Peter Wasilko : I’d like to see Xanadu’s side by side text with transclusion links rendered in 3-D!
17:35:30 From Alan Laidlaw : yes! Im actually wrestling with. The current “thin protocol” has the advantage of just pushing the scroll aside if I’m not in the mood.
17:36:40 From Adam Wern : Also perhaps recording with special gestures (using a small vocabulary)
17:37:41 From Frode Hegland : I also think about BVR:
17:37:41 From Alan Laidlaw : Brandel youre cutting out.
17:38:09 From Brandel Zachernuk : “Reading spaces” rather than VR, and thinking about the actions that AI is taking for folks is important
17:38:14 From Alan Laidlaw : Adam 👍
17:38:39 From Adam Wern : Spatial Authoring
17:39:42 From Fabien Benetou : Reacted to “Spatial Authoring” with 👍
17:39:54 From Alan Laidlaw : Fabien, I think will do the rods though. it would make the scroll so much more interactive
17:40:04 From Frode Hegland :
17:40:34 From Fabien Benetou : if done “right” might still be able to remove it easily but anyway if you want to “just” set it aside you can roll one side all the way and be done with it
17:43:29 From Alan Laidlaw : if you have suggestions on gear, I’d love it. I imagine four clamps would be needed. and pvc rod until I want a handle
17:45:31 From Peter Wasilko : We need Edward Tufte’s aesthetic
17:46:07 From Peter Wasilko : Who coined that term?
17:46:17 From Alan Laidlaw : cory doctorow
17:46:54 From Peter Wasilko : Thanks, Alan!
17:48:17 From Peter Wasilko : They are related, if the troops had hamburgs to eat the Battle of Waterloo might have played out differently!
17:49:12 From Fabien Benetou : Reacted to “if you have sugges…” with 👍
17:49:19 From Leon van Kammen : Tim Berner-Lee is promoting SOLID (pods) as a means for finer-grained access-controls (towards the user) to minimize the web-as-a-battlefield which Brandel is describing
17:49:53 From Adam Wern : On themes: Thinking with Text, Spatial but also Gestural Thinking. And gestures around Text are even more forgotten than the Text itself. And VR opens up a massive opportunity for gestural thinking in digital space.
17:51:22 From Alan Laidlaw : I have to go in five
17:52:41 From Frode Hegland : No Tufte! But apps are ok… cmd-p
17:54:37 From Alan Laidlaw : but we have to recognize that we are developing in a adversarial environment these days
17:54:53 From Alan Laidlaw : “ad” versarial
17:55:01 From Brandel Zachernuk : Reacted to “”ad” versarial” with 😂
17:55:58 From Peter Wasilko : We need well mannered ads that know their place.
17:58:01 From Fabien Benetou :

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