16:03:57 From Frode Hegland : Hi all!
16:09:19 From Dene Grigar : brb
16:11:51 From Alan Laidlaw : Also what can’t be represented in zeros and ones
16:12:23 From Rob Swigart : Check out: https://feltmagnet.com/crafts/learning-to-read-sumerian-how-to-make-clay-cuneiform-flashcards
16:12:36 From Dene Grigar : Thanks, Rob🙂
16:12:41 From Frode Hegland : Cool Rob!
16:17:10 From Peter Wasilko : Do we have to fire the tablets?
16:20:17 From Fabien Benetou : recent piece on multi modal https://huyenchip.com/2023/10/10/multimodal.html
16:20:57 From Fabien Benetou : still highlight the descriptive power of text though
16:23:11 From Alan Laidlaw : The interaction pattern here is beautiful to me. It reminded me of polyphony in Mozart. I call it polyfocal: https://pudding.cool/2023/09/invisible-epidemic/
16:23:14 From Mark Anderson : Generally our language spoken != written. all to often we treat them (digitally) the same. No wonder LLMs come up short (not that they won’t get better).
16:25:16 From Josh Cho : https://x.com/kevinafischer/status/1706325125312778407?s=61&t=lI9nNO9bkbL1YKFrdIw_Tg
more human-like wrapper of gpt (video)
16:26:18 From Frode Hegland : Certainly seems like he is sure of himself Josh
16:26:28 From Josh Cho : Reacted to “Certainly seems like…” with 😂
16:26:57 From Dene Grigar : ACM, IMHO, engages in gatekeeping
16:27:45 From Peter Wasilko : Very True
16:29:49 From Mark Anderson : BTW, @Dene what cite format to use the most? Was it APA? I forget, so many acronyms.
16:29:55 From Josh Cho : is this weekly?
16:31:03 From Frode Hegland : Yes, any given Monday
16:31:12 From Frode Hegland : Same time, same bat channel
16:31:20 From Josh Cho : Reacted to “Yes, any given Monda…” with 👍
16:35:16 From Mark Anderson : Interesting that LaTeX (much used in the sciences) work tends to focus on page count (betraying its print origin). Word (more used in the humanities) works with word counts but has no seeming notion of page count: despite the default Word view (print preview) being implicitly paginated. LaTeX needs a non-default package (possibly not in active maintenance) to report a word count. Funny how simple such simple and important metrics aren’t well handled in a consistent way. Oh dear…
16:36:53 From Peter Wasilko : I think word count would be sticky in LaTeX since there isn’t a 1-to-1 correspondence between source directives and Ship Out time text.
16:41:34 From Mark Anderson : Yes, but I do think different text-creating caucuses are overlooking the need (i.e. improving their tools) to provide better inter-communication about metrics as simple as ‘how much’, ‘no more than’, etc.
16:41:48 From Frode Hegland : https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/d37ncnpxbdtttfebw8373/Sloan-Proposal-Narrative-Pitch-v9-frode-edit-group-discussion.docx?rlkey=asgnh7an0zj01rtqh3mfuo3oz&dl=1
16:43:08 From Dene Grigar : Mark, I use MLA, Chicago, APA
16:44:03 From Fabien Benetou : which is a good thing IMHO, don’t want to be at Microsoft
16:44:26 From Mark Anderson : @Dene, thanks, got it.
16:44:50 From Dene Grigar : MRak 🙂
16:47:47 From Frode Hegland : For Reader BTW: https://www.augmentedtext.info
16:53:51 From Peter Wasilko : +1 for Crazy Ideas
16:53:59 From Dene Grigar : Think different
16:54:05 From Dene Grigar : Love that campaign
16:54:26 From Peter Wasilko : The Grammar drove me MAD when it came out.
17:01:38 From Alan Laidlaw : @Dene Grigar It’s great to hear that the grant is essentially ya’ll to lose. What do you feel are the weak spots?
17:07:09 From Mark Anderson : Re Visual Meta. BibTeX is essentially from the 1980s! We need it, or a structured citation format like it but for the post-print digitally native age. The fact it is used in Visual Meta is because there isn’t really anything else (at least that is used at scale). [second place was RIS which is even older and less supported!]
17:13:57 From Dene Grigar : Alan, I want to be sure that someone who will give us $250K believes that there are clear products that are of value to the community they serve AND that this teams of people are the kind of people who can do this job
17:14:50 From Peter Wasilko : I always reach for Parsing Expression Grammars and putting one in Visual Meta or referencing one in Visual Meta would make the most sense since it would instruct the reader on precisely how to write a parser for the Visual Meta presented.
17:15:03 From Rob Swigart : Headers in bold. topics in italic.
17:15:06 From Dene Grigar :
17:17:59 From Mark Anderson : Reacted to “I always reach for P…” with 👍🏻
17:18:06 From Frode Hegland : Josh, what’s your X handle?
17:18:24 From Josh Cho : @eating_entropy
17:18:56 From Frode Hegland : Reacted to “@eating_entropy” with 👍
17:19:08 From Dene Grigar : Josh🙂
17:19:33 From Dene Grigar : @dgrigar
17:19:42 From Dene Grigar : I joined Twitter in 2008
17:20:49 From Frode Hegland : It’s on their academic communication track
17:21:02 From Dene Grigar : If this is a NEH grant, I would have wanted us to start with a story and thennnnn going into grant narrative
17:21:03 From Mark Anderson : Softspace?
17:21:29 From Dene Grigar : But it seems that Sloan wants a straightforward explanation of the p[roject.
17:21:41 From Mark Anderson : as in the exploratory spaces in https://soft.space
17:21:47 From Alan Laidlaw : Reacted to “Softspace?” with 👍
17:22:03 From Dene Grigar : But is is NOT a research grant, which I am not familiar with writing, to be honest
17:22:23 From Alan Laidlaw : Ahh, that is good to know
17:23:09 From Alan Laidlaw : Im sure apple is working on the optics (meaning light in the eyeballs) of reading
17:23:21 From Dene Grigar : Yes
17:24:22 From Mark Anderson : ‘writing’ is presently very closely bonded to the delivery ‘render’. Part of the opportunity of XR suggests that—at least for new writing—that the two benefit from a looser coupling …
17:24:22 From Fabien Benetou To Frode Hegland(privately) : I can do a demo interlude if that’d help 😉
17:24:42 From Alan Laidlaw : I would encourage an emphasis on design patterns in multiplayer XR games. However I realize this may not play well to the audience.
17:25:12 From Frode Hegland To Fabien Benetou(privately) : Uhm yes
17:25:24 From Alan Laidlaw : Is the HUD equivalent of text something like Tableau? I hope not
17:25:41 From Mark Anderson : So the consumption is just one render based on the source. Many of us individually will likely want (need → disabilities) a different render.
17:25:48 From Josh Cho : it’s approaching 1 am for me
17:25:58 From Josh Cho : i’ll probably bounce as well
17:29:02 From Mark Anderson : @ alan, I think it’s not off track as the challenges that work presents still occur more broadly. IOW, semantic/structural metadata less closely coupled to the text (unlike in traditional media)
17:30:24 From Alan Laidlaw : Yeah, I have a naive hunch about the problem and a possible experiment
17:30:48 From Fabien Benetou : for reference https://twitter.com/utopiah/status/1716490068691505612
17:33:16 From Peter Wasilko : I have to drop, have a great week.
17:34:09 From Mark Anderson : I’m hearing the marketing being in no small part discovery, given the idea/product is new to them.
17:38:15 From Frode Hegland : Fabien come back!
17:38:43 From Fabien Benetou To Frode Hegland(privately) : (aren’t I back?)
17:38:51 From Frode Hegland To Fabien Benetou(privately) : Still image
17:39:28 From Fabien Benetou To Frode Hegland(privately) : (should be back, at least fixed my sound!)
17:39:37 From Frode Hegland To Fabien Benetou(privately) : Reacted to “(should be back, at …” with 👍
17:41:49 From Frode Hegland : Math English write different
17:44:46 From Mark Anderson : Despite the view about scan reading speed being faster on short line width, two column seems all about the economies of (paper) print. Dang, print, again.
17:47:34 From Alan Laidlaw : Brandel-Sidetone – just finished A Fire in the Deep and True Names by Vernor Vinge. Incredible!
17:48:19 From Brandel Zachernuk : Ooh – my daughter and I have nearly finished Rainbows End, I might skim those and suggest them as successors
17:49:02 From Mark Anderson : current tools tend to blend the visual aesthetic with the structure. Oddly, the Web (DOM & CSS) offers a more flexible approach. IMO, the reader needs more control of the render. Not all writing is/needs to be visually performative. Giving the reader more control of size layout will become only more pertinent with XR. So writing for expected remediation needs to be better bedded in our writing tools (and text generation processes).
17:49:07 From Frode Hegland : Tiktok future of text version?…
17:51:33 From Alan Laidlaw : @Fabien Benetou True Names was written for you.
17:51:39 From Fabien Benetou : https://video.benetou.fr/my-library/video-playlists/83a3b87a-1ed0-46f1-951f-c3d4a23e2ad8
17:54:32 From Fabien Benetou : Replying to “@Fabien Benetou Tr…”
didn’t read it but did read https://fabien.benetou.fr/ReadingNotes/TheSocietyOfMind a while ago
17:56:18 From Rob Swigart : War is excellent for geographical knowledge
17:56:59 From Fabien Benetou : Reacted to “War is excellent f…” with 😟
17:57:07 From Alan Laidlaw : Replying to “War is excellent for…”
This is it. You’re right. I think this more the cause of learning geography than new tools.
17:57:24 From Frode Hegland : Replying to “War is excellent for…”
17:57:38 From Fabien Benetou : Replying to “War is excellent f…”
I guess anything challenging our agency is bound to make us pay attention and thus learn
17:58:17 From Alan Laidlaw : Replying to “War is excellent for…”
But it seems the reverse is true in the US. If an agency threatener is closer, we seem to want know less about it.
17:58:56 From Alan Laidlaw : Replying to “War is excellent for…”
Maga is a mythological force, not bound to standard incentives
17:59:24 From Fabien Benetou : Replying to “War is excellent f…”
probably something on preferring ignorance when it challenges our identity
18:01:40 From Frode Hegland : Agree with your lament about the web. But media are different.
18:03:09 From Alan Laidlaw : Hmm. Html as a presentation mode is easier than ever. I think the struggle is the presentation itself, the published version.
There is also a cognitive weight to doing website “right.” And that is a tragedy. Like running. For some, running has become complex because it is so riddled with cross-incentives.
18:05:06 From Mark Anderson : Crazy. Just tried Twitter with CSS turned off. Unreadable!
18:05:16 From Brandel Zachernuk : Reacted to “Crazy. Just tried Tw…” with 😂
18:07:23 From Mark Anderson : Interestingly, had to use Firefox for the last. Safari (my default) doesn’t let me turn off styles.
18:07:44 From Alan Laidlaw : Im snobbish about it because I can too easily fall prey to infinite scrolls.
18:07:57 From Brandel Zachernuk : You can do weird things like delete the tag in inspector, I’ll have to take a look at whether it’s possible to do anything better
18:08:36 From Mark Anderson : Reacted to “You can do weird thi…” with 👍🏻
18:09:55 From Fabien Benetou : might break infinite scroll on browser, at worst timer like with https://git.benetou.fr/utopiah/online-hygiene/src/branch/master/index.js but not on mobile, or maybe on Android with Web Extension
18:10:24 From Fabien Benetou : actually that’d work on mobile too but over WiFi, or maybe via iSH on iOS but not sure about background
18:13:23 From Fabien Benetou : wondering if there are direct DOM manipulation in AFrame… as in grabbable entities
18:16:42 From Fabien Benetou : I’ll have to go but I also things LLMs as adapters make sense
18:16:50 From Fabien Benetou : s/things/think/
18:18:25 From Mark Anderson : A like the glossary-as-LLM model. Will take some shift in how we produce, but in the right context, useful.
18:21:32 From Alan Laidlaw : Let’s spin this off and focus on LLM as adapter. It is actually at the heart of visual meta
18:21:40 From Frode Hegland : Is there a system for a generative AI to interview someone to build a ‘LLM’? ‘AI Me’
18:21:48 From Frode Hegland : Yes Alan. XR & AI
18:21:53 From Fabien Benetou : Reacted to “Let’s spin this o…” with 👍
18:22:54 From Fabien Benetou : (really gotta go now, bye now, thanks for the discussion)
18:23:41 From Alan Laidlaw : This to me is the future of books
18:23:46 From Alan Laidlaw : As hubs
18:23:56 From Frode Hegland : Clouds
18:23:58 From Frode Hegland : Ghosts
18:24:02 From Frode Hegland : Deus ex machina
18:24:59 From Rob Swigart : Must go now too. Fascinating
18:25:39 From Frode Hegland : Here is an example: https://www.wired.com/story/artificial-intelligence-yuval-noah-harari-tristan-harris/
18:26:39 From Frode Hegland : 1 min
18:28:40 From Brandel Zachernuk : Reminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seam_carving
18:29:42 From Frode Hegland : Reacted to “Reminds me of https:…” with 👍
18:35:03 From Frode Hegland : For the reason Jeff Bezos hates meetings I think
18:38:22 From Frode Hegland : Need to drop in 7 mins
18:38:46 From Mark Anderson : I’m going to have to head out too.