Frode Hegland, Bob Horn, Karl Arthur Smink, Chris Gebhardt, Jurijs Kovzels, Andrew Thompson, Karl Hebenstreit, Mark Anderson, Peter Wasilko, Fabien Benetou, David De Roure, Eric Vicenti, Brandel Zachernuk, Horacio Herrera
AI: Summary
The meeting focused on discussing document formats for the future, particularly in relation to XR (Extended Reality) environments. Participants explored various existing formats like HTML, PDF, and ePub, as well as the potential need for new formats. The conversation touched on topics such as accessibility, semantic markup, the challenges of academic writing, and the importance of preserving document structure and meaning across different mediums. There was significant discussion about the balance between maintaining document integrity and allowing for dynamic, interactive content in XR spaces. Participants also shared their experiences and ideas about how to improve document readability, searchability, and interactivity in both traditional and XR environments.
AI: Speaker Summary
Frode Hegland:
Frode moderated the discussion and emphasized the need for a document format that can transition seamlessly between traditional and XR environments. He stressed the importance of having a “docuverse” where documents are always accessible and not dependent on servers. Frode also highlighted the potential of XR for presenting information in new ways, such as using expanded space for headings and references. He mentioned his work on a PDF viewer for Vision Pro and discussed the challenges of reading in XR environments.
Bob Horn:
Bob expressed frustration with the current state of academic documents, particularly their lack of clear structure and difficulty in finding key ideas. He advocated for better formatting and visual representation of ideas, referencing his work on visual language. Bob emphasized the need for documents to clearly communicate their structure and main points.
Karl Arthur Smink:
Karl shared his expertise in XR and discussed the potential of 3D visualizations for document navigation, referencing Obsidian’s graph view. He emphasized the importance of user convenience and efficiency in XR document interactions and suggested ways to improve document searchability and tagging.
Chris Gebhardt:
Chris advocated for a more dynamic, graph-based approach to document structure. He discussed the benefits of having atomic, referenceable content that can be composed and annotated flexibly.
Jurijs Kovzels:
Jurijs emphasized the importance of HTML as a flexible, well-adopted, and open format for future document needs. He cautioned against creating multiple file formats for the same content due to potential synchronization issues.
Andrew Thompson:
Andrew shared his experience working on XR projects and emphasized the importance of considering user engagement and intuitive design in XR document interfaces.
Karl Hebenstreit:
Karl brought up the importance of accessibility in document formats, particularly for people with disabilities. He mentioned ongoing research and initiatives in this area, including work on LaTeX accessibility.
Mark Anderson:
Mark highlighted the importance of considering both the technical aspects of document formats and the human factors involved in writing and reading. He discussed the challenges of academic writing conventions and the need for better ways to communicate document structure and key ideas.
Peter Wasilko:
Peter advocated for more semantic approaches to document formats, suggesting the use of standoff markup and the inclusion of machine-readable descriptions of notations. He also discussed the potential of parsing technologies for improving document understanding.
Fabien Benetou:
Fabien shared his experiences with offline content access and emphasized the importance of considering both normal use cases and extreme scenarios when designing document systems.
David De Roure:
David brought perspectives from his work in digital scholarship and music encoding. He expressed interest in exploring new document formats that can balance a common core with flexible extensions.
Eric Vicenti:
Eric discussed the development of a new document format at Seed Hypermedia, emphasizing the need for semantic content and features like transclusion. He stressed the importance of interoperability and the challenges of creating a new format that can be widely adopted.
Brandel Zachernuk:
Brandel emphasized the importance of HTML as a foundation for future document formats, particularly in relation to 3D and XR environments. He discussed the security considerations of web technologies and the potential of formats like Universal Scene Description (USD) for 3D content.
Horacio Herrera:
Horacio briefly mentioned the file format being developed at Seed Hypermedia, highlighting features such as immutability, peer-to-peer sharing, and support for comments and hierarchy.
AI: Topics Discussed
WebXR:
WebXR was discussed in the context of developing document formats that can transition seamlessly between traditional web browsing and XR environments. Brandel Zachernuk mentioned working on web standards at Apple, particularly those that would impact Apple Vision Pro. There was discussion about the potential of using HTML as a foundation for XR document formats.
Gestures:
Gestures were not explicitly discussed in detail during this meeting.
Sloan:
The Sloan Foundation was briefly mentioned as funding part of the group’s work on the future of text in relation to XR.
Symposium:
The symposium was briefly mentioned in the context of the upcoming Future of Text book, with a preview planned for November.
Book:
The Future of Text book was mentioned, with Frode Hegland noting that it would be published in November/December. There was discussion about what format(s) the book should be published in, considering both traditional (e.g., PDF) and potential XR versions.
Visual-Meta:
Visual-Meta was briefly mentioned by Mark Anderson in relation to Eric Vicenti’s discussion of the new format being developed at Seed Hypermedia. Mark noted that Visual-Meta’s intent is to contain or re-reference any defined format.
Timelines:
Timelines were not explicitly discussed during this meeting.
visionOS or Vision Pro development:
Frode Hegland mentioned developing a PDF viewer for Vision Pro. Brandel Zachernuk discussed his work on web standards at Apple, particularly those that would impact Apple Vision Pro. There was general discussion about the potential and challenges of reading and interacting with documents in XR environments like Vision Pro.
Other topics discussed included:
1. Document formats (HTML, PDF, ePub, etc.)
2. Accessibility in document design
3. Academic writing and formatting conventions
4. Semantic markup and machine-readable content
5. 3D visualization of document structures
6. Challenges of preserving document integrity while allowing for dynamic content
7. The balance between convenience and efficiency in XR document interactions
8. The potential of new parsing technologies for improving document understanding
9. The importance of offline content access
10. The development of new document formats (e.g., Seed Hypermedia’s project)
11. The role of AI in future document interactions
AI: Concepts Introduced
1. Docuverse: Introduced by Frode Hegland as a concept where documents are always accessible and not dependent on servers.
2. Visual Language: Mentioned by Bob Horn, referring to his book on the combination of words and visual elements in communication.
3. Standoff Markup: Mentioned by Peter Wasilko as a technique for adding metadata to documents without altering the original text.
4. Epimarkup: Introduced by Peter Wasilko as an approach where ordinary user-level text can be designed to be extractable and parsable for embedded markup functionality.
5. Open Graph protocol: Mentioned by Brandel Zachernuk as a potential candidate for structured data sharing that could be adopted by W3C.
6. Universal Scene Description (USD): Discussed by Brandel Zachernuk as a 3D file format with potential applications in document representation.
7. Audience capture: Mentioned by Karl Arthur Smink, referring to the phenomenon where content creators self-censor or modulate their content based on anticipated audience reactions.
AI: Notes for Claude
There were no direct references to Claude in this transcript.
AI: People Mentioned
Vint Cerf, mentioned by Frode Hegland as being supportive of their work
Bill Atkinson, mentioned by Frode Hegland for his work on HyperCard and the original Mac
Dene Grigar, mentioned by Brandel Zachernuk as a participant in the Sloan Grant work and for her experience with thesis writing
Andy Clark, mentioned by Brandel Zachernuk as an influence on his work in extended mind and predictive processing
Randy Trigg, mentioned by Mark Anderson in relation to link intentionality syntax
TV Raman, mentioned by Karl Hebenstreit as a blind computer scientist who developed Aural CSS and Emacspeak
Tony Stanco, mentioned by Karl Hebenstreit in relation to O-STEP (Open Source Transition Equity Program)
Bob Balaban, mentioned by Karl Hebenstreit as the developer of Domino back-end technology
AI: Product or Company Names Mentioned
Obsidian, mentioned by Karl Arthur Smink as an example of document organization and visualization
Vision Pro, mentioned by Frode Hegland and Brandel Zachernuk in relation to XR document viewing
Macintosh, mentioned by Frode Hegland in comparison to Vision Pro
HyperCard, mentioned by Frode Hegland in relation to Bill Atkinson’s work
LaTeX, mentioned by Peter Wasilko and others in discussions about document formatting
Enigma and Colossus, mentioned by Brandel Zachernuk in relation to cryptography and reading
Bravo, mentioned by Brandel Zachernuk in relation to text editing history
Kindle, mentioned by Karl Arthur Smink in relation to e-book reading paradigms
Google Docs, mentioned by Karl Arthur Smink as an example of cloud-based document editing
Lotus Notes, mentioned by Karl Hebenstreit in an anecdote about early mobile document access
Boston Globe, mentioned by Karl Hebenstreit in the same anecdote
IPFS (InterPlanetary File System), mentioned by Eric Vicenti and Peter Wasilko as a potential foundation for new document formats
Seed Hypermedia, mentioned by Eric Vicenti and Horacio Herrera as their company developing a new document format
Apple, mentioned by Brandel Zachernuk in relation to his work on web standards
Chrome and Firefox, mentioned by Brandel Zachernuk in relation to browser development
Safari and WebKit, mentioned by Brandel Zachernuk in relation to web technologies
Autodesk, mentioned by Brandel Zachernuk in relation to 3D modeling and annotation needs
Reality Composer and Reality Composer Pro, mentioned by Brandel Zachernuk in relation to 3D content creation for Apple platforms
Pixar, mentioned by Brandel Zachernuk in relation to the development of Universal Scene Description (USD) format
Unreal Engine, mentioned by Karl Arthur Smink in relation to blueprint scripting and graph visualization
AI: Agreements & Disagreements
Agreements:
1. There was general agreement on the need for improved document formats that can handle both traditional and XR environments.
2. Many participants agreed that current academic document formats are often difficult to navigate and don’t clearly communicate structure or key ideas.
3. There was consensus on the importance of accessibility in document design.
4. Several participants agreed on the potential of HTML as a foundation for future document formats, particularly in XR contexts.
5. There was agreement on the need for documents to be more interactive and adaptable to different viewing contexts.
Disagreements:
1. There were differing opinions on whether to create entirely new document formats or build upon existing ones like HTML or ePub.
2. Some participants favored a more structured, semantic approach to document formats, while others emphasized the need for flexibility and user customization.
3. There was some disagreement on the practicality of creating a single format that could meet all needs versus having multiple specialized formats.
4. Opinions varied on the balance between preserving document integrity and allowing for dynamic, interactive content.
5. There were different perspectives on the importance of offline access versus cloud-based document systems.
AI: Other
The meeting demonstrated a rich exchange of ideas from experts in various fields related to document technology, XR, and information design. The diversity of perspectives led to a comprehensive discussion that touched on technical, user experience, and philosophical aspects of future document formats. The group’s focus on both the immediate practical challenges and long-term visionary ideas shows a commitment to thoughtful and forward-looking development in the field of text and XR. The ongoing nature of these discussions suggests that the group is actively working towards innovative solutions in this space.
Chat Log URLs
https://www.read.ai/pp
https://www.nature.com/articles/s42005-020-00403-4
https://curvenote.com/
https://curvenote.com/blog/from-jupyter-notebook-to-scientific-paper
https://htmx.org/
https://mindmaps.scholarcy.dev/
https://xraccess.org/projects/
https://twitter.com/utopiah
https://fabien.benetou.fr/
https://www.psdi.ac.uk
https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/management/ofcio/delivering-a-digital-first-public-experience/
https://linktr.ee/zachernuk
https://www.software.ac.uk
https://seedhypermedia.com
https://x.com/jurijsks
https://www.pewresearch.org/data-labs/2024/05/17/when-online-content-disappears/
https://accessibility2024.arxiv.org/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Text_Encoding_Initiative
https://x.com/utopiah/status/1809672255338607089
https://fabien.benetou.fr/Content/Vademecum
https://linktr.ee/karlsmink
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C47&q=LaTeX+accessibility+disabilities+dissertation+switzerland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._V._Raman
https://www.datamation.com/applications/o-step-seeks-to-step-up-open-source-transition/
https://thefutureoftext.org/xr/
https://github.com/seed-hypermedia/seed
https://www.linkedin.com/in/karlhebenstreitjr/