Presentation by Andreea Ion CojoCaru. Moderated by Dene Grigar.
AI: Summary
The meeting featured a presentation by Andreea Ion Cojocaru titled “Writing on Water: Body Texts in a Disembodied Medium.” As an architect and VR developer, Andreea explored the conceptual framework for understanding space in extended reality (XR). She began by explaining her architectural approach of designing relationships between humans and environments rather than merely buildings. Drawing on Piaget’s developmental psychology, she discussed how reality is constructed through intellectual evolution, arguing that the structure of our minds shapes the structure of reality. Andreea proposed that XR offers an opportunity to return to a childlike state of exploration where text and meaning are fluid rather than fixed. She advocated for using XR to create experiences where users must rediscover how reality works, embracing ambiguity and allowing the body to guide understanding when words fail. The discussion touched on themes of beauty, cognitive development, and the potential for XR to create new patterns of thought and relationships.
Andreea Ion Cojocaru, Dene Grigar, Frode Hegland, Brandel Zachernuk, Tom Haymes, Rob Swigart, Peter Wasilko, Jonathan Finn, Karl Arthur Smink, Jim Strahorn, Karl Hebenstreit Jr., Bob Horn
AI: Speaker Summary
Andreea Ion Cojocaru presented on “Writing on Water: Body Texts in a Disembodied Medium.” As an architect and VR developer, she focused on the conceptual framework for understanding XR. She explained that she designs relationships between humans and environments rather than just physical structures. Drawing on Piaget’s theories, she argued that reality is constructed through intellectual processes, with the structure of mind determining the structure of reality. She suggested that XR offers an opportunity to return to a more exploratory, childlike state where meaning is fluid rather than fixed. Andreea emphasized that when users enter synthetic realities with different rules, text and speech often fail, and the body becomes the primary means of understanding. She advocated for embracing this ambiguity rather than constraining XR to mimic physical reality’s properties. Her vision involves using XR to invent new words and experiences that allow fresh perceptions and relationships, creating the “writing on water” effect that gives her presentation its title.
Dene Grigar moderated the session and asked clarifying questions about Piaget’s developmental stages and how they connect to designing for adults. She was particularly interested in the age at which children transition to different stages of reality construction, noting connections to cultural milestones like Catholic first communion at age seven. Dene also questioned Andreea about architectural drawing conventions and light notation, finding connections between architectural visualization and other fields like music. She mentioned that the BBC would be doing a photo shoot of her lab on Wednesday in relation to Microsoft’s 50th anniversary, despite her lab primarily using Macintosh computers.
Frode Hegland made connections between Andreea’s ideas and various books, including “A Brief History of Intelligence” by Max Bennett and “The Case for God” by Karen Armstrong, particularly relating to her points about embracing ambiguity rather than seeking clarity. He discussed how children can simultaneously recognize a toy as itself and as what it represents (like Darth Vader), a capability adults lose. Frode also mentioned his work with Fabian on developing a language starting with “volumes” that contain “frames” instead of pages, allowing for more flexible structures in VR. He emphasized that what they’re building isn’t throwing away traditional structures but creating space for experimentation.
Brandel Zachernuk was interested in the absence of light notation in architectural drawings despite the existence of notational systems in other fields like music and dance. He asked Andreea about the different types of “texts” that architects use to communicate their intentions, drawing parallels to how other artistic disciplines handle notation of effects versus instructions.
Tom Haymes discussed how art transcends technical notation, whether in music, architecture, or other fields. He was particularly interested in Andreea’s reluctance to rely on text to convey ideas, suggesting visualization as his own solution to similar challenges. He asked how she would memorialize experiences in a way that isn’t text-based if she had unlimited power over her medium. Tom also noted the importance of creating safe spaces for risk-taking in digital environments, comparing it to how children learn through play.
Rob Swigart made brief comments about the interpretation of “psychological” versus “physiological” space, and noted that archaeologists can call a house an extension of the body or “flesh.” He also mentioned that when Rosalind Franklin saw Watson and Crick’s model of DNA, she simply said “It’s beautiful,” connecting to the discussion of beauty that emerged near the end of the session.
Peter Wasilko asked numerous questions about architectural notation, particularly whether any systems existed for indicating light effects in plans. He inquired about Christopher Alexander’s pattern language and its reception in architecture versus computer science, and asked about professional restrictions in architecture. Peter was interested in “liquid architectures” with active elements that can be reconfigured, and mentioned his childhood experience of visualizing the USS Enterprise from blueprints.
Jonathan Finn noted that architectural plans are primarily instructions for builders rather than representations of effects, comparing them to musical scores. He mentioned that churches generally face east as an example of astronomical alignment in architecture, and described Skara Brae, a stone age village in Orkney with buildings oriented to follow the sun. Jonathan also noted that his architect friends were mostly unfamiliar with Christopher Alexander’s work.
Karl Arthur Smink contributed insights on the distinction between physiological space (the actual body and stimuli “as it is”) versus psychological space (the perception and interpretation of signals). He discussed how creativity often emerges from understanding norms and intentionally breaking them, and noted that expectations can make novelty either refreshing or distressing. Karl also suggested that environmental design for video games offers architects freedom from physical constraints.
Jim Strahorn identified an ambiguity in the orientation of Andreea’s architectural plan versus the photograph, noting that while north is typically at the top of plans, the photograph showed sunlight from a different direction. He reflected on how this ambiguity impacts clarity of understanding.
Bob Horn asked about the absence of discussion about beauty throughout the presentation, wondering how this concept related to what Andreea and Piaget had been discussing. He also mentioned Christopher Alexander’s four-volume work “The Nature of Order” as the book he had previously recommended to Andreea.
AI: Topics Discussed
What was discussed regarding gestures? Andreea mentioned that in XR environments where traditional rules don’t apply, text and speech often fail as communication tools, and gestures become more important and potent. She noted that when people try to explain something in these spaces, they often say things like “let me show you” or “just look at it” while performing gestures. She described this as text “collapsing back into gesture” and “collapsing back into the body,” with the body becoming the primary means of understanding when thought and verbalization fail. Andreea viewed this return to bodily knowledge as an exhilarating aspect of XR technology.
Were other topics discussed? Piaget’s developmental psychology was extensively discussed, particularly his theory that reality is constructed through intellectual development. Andreea explained how Piaget’s work shows that time and space emerge from intellectual processes rather than existing objectively.
The relationship between physical and mental space was explored, with Andreea rejecting the simple bidirectional diagram of mental versus experiential reality as too simplistic for XR.
Architectural design philosophy was covered, with Andreea defining her work as designing relationships between humans and environments rather than just designing buildings.
Beauty in design was briefly discussed near the end, with Bob Horn noting its absence from the presentation and Andreea acknowledging it as a complex topic she avoids using without clear formulation.
The concept of loosening fixed meanings to allow for more creativity and exploration was a recurring theme, with Andreea arguing for “poetic regression” in XR.
Christopher Alexander’s pattern language and its reception in architecture versus computer science was discussed, with Peter Wasilko asking about its influence.
The double loading of brain structures was mentioned by Andreea, referring to how the same neural structures can be used for different functions, including abstract thinking.
The relationship between text and embodied experience in XR was central to the presentation, with Andreea advocating for more fluid, exploratory approaches to meaning-making.
Were there any interesting anecdotes? Andreea shared an anecdote about a Buddhist meditation practice where a young monk was instructed to imagine having heavy horns on his head. After weeks of this practice, the monk was observed moving sideways through doorways to accommodate the imaginary horns, illustrating how mental constructs can affect physical behavior.
Andreea also mentioned an experiment from Barbara Tversky’s book “Mind in Motion” where people who held hot or cold water while meeting someone new later described that person as having a “warm” or “cold” personality respectively, demonstrating how physical sensations influence abstract judgments.
Dene Grigar mentioned that the BBC was coming to do a photo shoot of her lab for Microsoft’s 50th anniversary, despite her lab having mostly Macintosh computers rather than PCs.
Andreea described her experience with a VR application where users can be inside a house at 1:1 scale while simultaneously holding and manipulating a miniature version of the same house, including moving a “mini me” representation of themselves. She described the “tingling of the brain” this causes as similar to what children experience when discovering something new.
Andreea shared a story about a biology PhD student who wanted to study why fields in Montana had specific proportions of yellow and purple flowers. The student’s advisor rejected this as merely aesthetic rather than scientific, but years later it was discovered there was indeed a scientific reason for this specific ratio of colors.
AI: Concepts Introduced
Andreea Ion Cojocaru introduced “designing relationships between humans and environments” as her definition of architecture, explaining that she doesn’t design buildings but rather the nature of the relationship between people and spaces. This relationship can range from cozy spaces that call to you through their affordances to spaces that promote or prevent bodily movement to contemplative spaces that change your state of mind.
Andreea discussed “physiological space” versus “perceived and conceived space” from Piaget, describing the former as space perceived prior to intellectual processing and the latter as space shaped by the intellect.
Andreea introduced the concept of “double loaded” brain structures, referring to neural mechanisms that serve multiple functions across different domains, such as how the same brain region might process both physical temperature and social “warmth.”
Andreea defined “poetic regression” as her proposed approach to XR, suggesting we should go backward to a more childlike state of meaning-making rather than continuing to stabilize and clarify meanings further.
Frode Hegland mentioned “logos” and “mythos” from Karen Armstrong’s work, contrasting logos (rational, clear understanding) with mythos (appreciation that some things cannot be fully understood), connecting this to Andreea’s advocacy for embracing ambiguity.
Jim Strahorn identified the concept of “ambiguity” in architectural drawings, noting how the different orientations of plans versus photographs can create productive tension in understanding.
Tom Haymes referenced “emergent design” from John Seely Brown and Ann Pendleton-Jullian’s book “Design Unbound,” describing it as a useful theory that relates to the exploratory approach Andreea was advocating.
Andreea defined “creativity” as “basically my personal joy…if I love what I’m doing right now, if it’s like one of the best feelings I’ve ever had being alive, that’s what I’m calling creativity.”
Karl Arthur Smink distinguished between engineering as “following all the rules to a T” versus creativity as “choosing what rules to ignore,” noting that knowing the rules helps in deciding which ones to break.
AI: People Mentioned
Piaget, mentioned by Andreea Ion Cojocaru as the foundation for her theoretical framework on how reality is constructed through intellectual development and evolution.
Merleau-Ponty, mentioned by Andreea Ion Cojocaru as a French phenomenologist who said that nature and environment call on you through their affordances.
Foucault, mentioned by Andreea Ion Cojocaru when discussing “heterotopia,” spaces designed to feel distinct from normal spaces.
Barbara Tversky, mentioned by Andreea Ion Cojocaru when discussing an experiment from Tversky’s book “Mind in Motion” about how physical sensations influence abstract judgments.
Max Bennett, mentioned by Frode Hegland as the author of “A Brief History of Intelligence,” a book that Frode recommended to Andreea.
Karen Armstrong, mentioned by Frode Hegland as the author of “The Case for God,” which discusses logos and mythos in relation to Andreea’s points about embracing ambiguity.
Elaine Scarry, mentioned by Andreea Ion Cojocaru as a philosopher who argues that our sense of beauty is connected to our sense of justice.
Frank Gehry, mentioned by Andreea Ion Cojocaru when discussing loose architectural sketches that allow for multiple interpretations and creative exploration.
Christopher Alexander, mentioned by Peter Wasilko, Bob Horn, and Andreea Ion Cojocaru in relation to his “pattern language” approach to architecture and design.
Alan Kay, mentioned by Tom Haymes in the chat, quoting Kay’s saying “The best way to predict the future is to invent it.”
Neal Stephenson, mentioned by Tom Haymes and Dene Grigar in the chat as an author whose novel “Fall” offers insights related to constructed reality and XR.
John Seely Brown and Ann Pendleton-Jullian, mentioned by Tom Haymes in the chat as authors of “Design Unbound,” which develops a theory of “emergent design.”
Stewart Brand, mentioned by Tom Haymes in the chat as the author of “How Buildings Learn,” a book he suggests architects should know.
Shel Silverstein, mentioned by Karl Arthur Smink in the chat as a poet he enjoyed reading as a child.
Rosalind Franklin, Watson, and Crick, mentioned by Rob Swigart in the chat when noting that Franklin described the DNA model as “beautiful.”
Jane Goodall, mentioned by Karl Hebenstreit Jr. in the chat regarding Jeremy Connell-Waite’s analysis of her work in relation to logos.
Jeremy Connell-Waite, mentioned by Karl Hebenstreit Jr. in the chat as someone who analyzed Jane Goodall’s work.
Fabian, mentioned by Frode Hegland as his collaborator on developing a language starting with “volumes” for XR.
Varela, mentioned by Andreea Ion Cojocaru as “the father of Enactivism” who studied how intellectual schemas condition what visual information reaches the brain.
Marc Anderson and Fabian Bénétou, mentioned by Dene Grigar as participants who would not be attending but would watch the recording.
Shelley, mentioned by Andreea Ion Cojocaru as one of the best poets in the English language whom people no longer read.
AI: Product or Company Names Mentioned
Microsoft, mentioned by Dene Grigar regarding the BBC coming to do a photo shoot of her lab for Microsoft’s 50th anniversary, despite her lab using mostly Macintosh computers.
Macintosh/Macintoshes, mentioned by Dene Grigar as the primary computers used in her lab because “artists use Macintoshes.”
BBC, mentioned by Dene Grigar as the organization sending a team to photograph her lab for a story about Microsoft’s 50th anniversary.
Adobe Illustrator, mentioned by Frode Hegland when discussing how text is constrained in programs like Microsoft Word but can be placed at angles in Illustrator.
Microsoft Word, mentioned by Frode Hegland when discussing how typeset text is linear and constrained compared to more free-form approaches.
SketchUp, mentioned by Frode Hegland in relation to architectural software that can render lighting based on orientation and location.
Star Wars, mentioned by Frode Hegland when discussing how children can simultaneously recognize a toy as both itself and as what it represents (like Darth Vader).
USS Enterprise, mentioned by Peter Wasilko in the chat about visualizing the spaceship from blueprints as a child.
LEED, mentioned by Tom Haymes in the chat as “the new Stonehenge,” referring to modern standards for energy-efficient building design.
Minecraft, mentioned by Karl Arthur Smink in the chat as an example of someone learning a new interface and reality, related to Andreea’s points about exploration in unfamiliar spaces.
AI: Other
The presentation and discussion revealed a fascinating tension between structure and freedom in design thinking. Andreea Ion Cojocaru’s proposal for “poetic regression” in XR design challenges conventional wisdom about progress always being about greater clarity, definition, and structure. Instead, she suggests that the most exciting potential of XR lies in its ability to create spaces where established meanings break down and users must rely on bodily knowledge to construct new understanding.
This approach has significant implications for the Future of Text project. If text in XR becomes more fluid, embodied, and connected to gestural expression, it may require fundamentally rethinking how we conceptualize reading and writing in spatial computing environments. Rather than simply transferring existing textual practices into virtual spaces, Andreea suggests embracing the disorientation that comes when text fails, and allowing new forms of meaning-making to emerge.
The discussion also highlighted the interdisciplinary nature of the group, with perspectives from architecture, computer science, game design, and philosophy coming together to explore how meaning is constructed in virtual spaces. This cross-pollination of ideas seems essential for developing truly innovative approaches to text in XR.
Chat Log URLs
https://www.nealstephenson.com/fall,-or-dodge-in-hell.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4Ys6aEZ_do&ab_channel=TheDrumThing https://www.desunbound.com
https://www.amazon.com/Unbuilt-Radical-visions-future-arrived/dp/1849946639 https://www.linkedin.com/posts/jeremypaulwaite_id-like-to-show-you-why-jane-goodall-is-activity-6938108307496693761-9oZn/ https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44477/ode-on-a-grecian-urn
The chat log reveals a rich parallel discussion that complemented the main presentation. Participants shared relevant book recommendations, philosophical observations, and personal experiences. Several participants compared architectural notation to other fields like music, noting that both require specialized training to interpret. Tom Haymes recommended Neal Stephenson’s novel “Fall” for its insights on perception and reality construction, while also suggesting John Seely Brown and Ann Pendleton-Jullian’s “Design Unbound” for its theory of emergent design. Karl Arthur Smink made an interesting comparison between watching someone play Minecraft for the first time and the exploratory process Andreea described in unfamiliar XR environments. Jonathan Finn mentioned Skara Brae, a stone age village in Orkney with buildings oriented to follow the sun, connecting ancient practices to the discussion of architectural design and environmental awareness. The chat also touched on the tension between structure and creativity, with Karl noting that “Engineers optimize FOR metrics. Artists optimize WITHIN metrics.” There were several discussions about beauty, including Rob Swigart’s note about Rosalind Franklin describing the DNA model as “beautiful” and Karl Hebenstreit sharing a link about Jane Goodall related to the logos discussion. Peter Wasilko shared his childhood experience of visualizing the USS Enterprise from blueprints, connecting to the theme of mental simulation and spatial understanding.