17:08:46 From Frode Hegland : Leon, you here?
17:08:56 From Frode Hegland : Where is Brandel and Alan?…
17:09:19 From Leon van Kammen : I’m here, getting my audio to work ..hold on
17:09:29 From Frode Hegland : Reacted to “I’m here, getting my…” with 👍
17:10:01 From Fabien Benetou : related https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/WebXR_Standards_and_Accessibility_Architecture_Issues and https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/blob/main/accessibility-considerations-explainer.md https://xraccess.org/
17:10:15 From Peter Wasilko : My favorite personal turn of phrase is “Elite but not Elitist”
17:10:46 From Fabien Benetou : there is also https://frontendmasters.com/courses/3d-webxr/accessibility/ whom I know well, she could do a presentation here Im sure, if timing aligns
17:10:53 From Frode Hegland : Comments to Sloan Comments: https://thefutureoftext.org/replies-to-sloan-review-comments/
17:11:45 From Dene Grigar : Peter: as I said my students are not elite but elite thinkers
17:12:31 From Peter Wasilko : Replying to “Peter: as I said my …”
Well said!
17:12:39 From Michael Bonfert : Reacted to “Peter: as I said my …” with ❤️
17:13:54 From Dene Grigar : I see art as the sandbox of higher level thinking
17:15:23 From Fabien Benetou : (did mention things like that for https://git.benetou.fr/utopiah/offline-octopus but didn’t use the expression “streaming documents”)
17:16:38 From Dene Grigar : Here is the article about Tim Rice/Cook🙂: https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/11/tech/tim-cook-risks-his-legacy-on-a-pricy-product-in-an-unproven-market/index.html
17:19:24 From Peter Wasilko : I recently discovered an XR community called the XReality Academy founded by a Dominique Wu. https://xrealitypro.com & https://www.xreality.academy/home
17:20:16 From Peter Wasilko : I attended an amazing free talk there by Curtis Hickman of The VOID. https://www.xreality.academy/c/events/magic-and-experience-design-crafting-virtual-wonders
17:22:03 From Peter Wasilko : The XReality site has a free side with zoom events and a paywalled side with more elaborate courses (at $89/month for membership).
17:22:33 From Fabien Benetou : (should do AI summary catch up)
17:23:10 From Dene Grigar : Peter, thank you for sharing. Do people have to commit to a year or is it a pay by month situation?
17:24:08 From Peter Wasilko : I am guessing it would be a month by month recurring credit card charge until cancellation.
17:24:25 From Dene Grigar : OK, Thanks
17:25:26 From Peter Wasilko : I think we should invite Dominique to speak to the group.
17:25:49 From Fabien Benetou : for ref https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebDAV
17:27:04 From Fabien Benetou : (with for the anecdote “Requirements for a Distributed Authoring and Versioning Protocol for the World Wide Web” RFC 2291, issued February 1998, so more than 25 years ago)
17:28:07 From Dene Grigar : Fabien +1
17:29:10 From Peter Wasilko : I am also happy to report that The VOID is being rebooted. https://www.thevoid.com/
17:29:21 From Fabien Benetou : Reacted to “I am also happy to…” with 👍
17:29:26 From Michael Bonfert : Reacted to “I am also happy to r…” with 🥳
17:29:36 From Michael Bonfert : Replying to “I am also happy to r…”
I hope internationally? 😄
17:29:47 From Fabien Benetou : Peter : still reading Hyper-Reality from Hickman
17:30:19 From Peter Wasilko : They create impossible experiences with XR on stages that employ tricks like Redirected Walking to create an infinitely long straight corridor and re-entrant rooms that feel like different spaces at different scales.
17:31:45 From Peter Wasilko : I’m reading it too: https://www.amazon.com/Hyper-Reality-Art-Designing-Impossible-Experiences/dp/B0C8R5X99M/
17:31:53 From Peter Wasilko : It is a must read for all of us!
17:32:51 From Brandel Zachernuk : I need to feed my cats, I will be free very soon!
17:32:51 From Peter Wasilko : We might be able to team up with The VOID or one of the other studies developing XR for the Themed Entertainment Industry.
17:33:19 From Dene Grigar : Peter, just bought it.
17:33:52 From Fabien Benetou : actual example https://developers.home-assistant.io/docs/api/rest/
17:33:58 From Peter Wasilko : Last week I attended the Blooloop online Festival of Innovation and there are a number of players looking at the tech for Museum Exhibits as well pure entertainment.
17:34:49 From Dene Grigar : Peter, one of my goals for The NEXT, the virtual museum/library my lab built and maintains for born digital art, games and lit, is to move it into a VR environment.
17:34:50 From Peter Wasilko : https://blooloop.com
17:35:12 From Dene Grigar : Right now, it is built around the notion of virtuality, liveness
17:35:25 From Michael Bonfert : It’s hard to pull myself away here, but I’d better get back to writing… Take care everyone ❤️
17:35:35 From Dene Grigar : Bye, Michael
17:36:02 From Fabien Benetou : Reacted to “https://blooloop.c…” with 👍
17:36:28 From Fabien Benetou : FWIW on the topic https://git.benetou.fr/utopiah/offline-octopus/issues/18
17:40:17 From Frode Hegland : Not storage, transmission
17:40:26 From Peter Wasilko : One of Curtis’ observations from the book is that we can reduce motion sensitivity in VR by simulating a very fast acceleration/deceleration on either end of a constant speed movement over a large area; this works because the visual system kicks over to null acceleration traveling in a vehicle mode before the inner ear recognizes that it wasn’t being feeling the Delta V that started the movement.
17:40:41 From Fabien Benetou : Peter : did you try The Void?
17:41:23 From Peter Wasilko : Sadly not, my sense is that they totally nailed preventing sim sickness for their users!
17:41:38 From Dene Grigar : Believe me, I am not tied to working with pdfs.
17:41:51 From Frode Hegland : Reacted to “Believe me, I am not…” with 😂
17:43:47 From Peter Wasilko : I wish we could support Knuth/Platt line breaks and micro-typography in XR, failing that I”m toying with the idea of using the LaTeX “Standalone” package to pre-render text blocks using LaTeX and then either pull them in as images or perhaps convert them to SVG.
17:44:20 From Dene Grigar : Peter, text blocks=packets?
17:45:09 From Peter Wasilko : Paragraphs of text output constrained by a target line width.
17:45:34 From Dene Grigar :
17:46:06 From Peter Wasilko : Rendering time for LuaLaTeX to typeset tiny blocks of content like that would be negligible.
17:46:30 From Dene Grigar : Never enough
17:47:26 From Dene Grigar : Reading, interacting, manipulating
17:47:43 From Peter Wasilko : For example :
17:47:45 From Peter Wasilko : \documentclass[varwidth=3in, crop=true, margin=2mm]{standalone}
\usepackage{microtype}
\usepackage{fontspec}
\begin{document}\fontspec{Recursive}This could be any block of text that we want to have typset.
\end{document}
17:48:36 From Adam Wern : Maybe Skip multiplayer, but keep multi client (vr/desktop/ phone?)
17:48:38 From Fabien Benetou : I was hooked on Quake2 and 3 for way too long to admit, competitively…
17:49:15 From Peter Wasilko : Sadly, micro type protrusion doesn’t seem to be working with standalone, so it isn’t clear if microtype is having any effect. I’d have to run some text paragraphs through and compare their rendered PDF output to tell.
17:50:07 From Peter Wasilko : But this is the output we’d get.
17:50:09 From Frode Hegland : https://www.theonion.com/quake-claims-500-hours-1819565271
17:50:33 From Dene Grigar : Taking a break to feed the cat before he starts biting me
17:50:50 From Fabien Benetou : Reacted to “https://www.theoni…” with 😄
17:51:27 From Peter Wasilko : https://crdt.tech
17:52:11 From Fabien Benetou : Replying to “https://crdt.tech”
used in collaborative text (and code) editors
17:53:01 From Peter Wasilko : https://www.inkandswitch.com/local-first/
17:53:21 From Fabien Benetou : Reacted to “https://www.inkand…” with 👍
17:55:20 From Leon van Kammen : I’m a bit confused where the webdav thing comes in after all the talk about webservers 🙂
17:55:21 From Dene Grigar : I am glad we are using Reader. We did not mention it in the grant proposal but it is what was in my mind
17:57:17 From Dene Grigar : My team starts on this project January 1, but they have been aware of it since the grant proposal process and full on onboarding starts next Monday
17:58:21 From Peter Wasilko : The imba language is about to enter Beta and it is the ideal tool for UI development. I will try to get it to play with A-Frame as we move forward.
17:59:16 From Frode Hegland : Who has seen “for all mankind”?
17:59:20 From Frode Hegland : Hi Bob!
17:59:51 From Peter Wasilko : Some of us older folks are completely unbounded too!
18:00:03 From Rob Swigart : I’ve seen FAM
18:04:43 From Dene Grigar : One summer month of my academic salary
18:07:45 From Peter Wasilko : https://3dconnexion.com/us/
18:11:19 From Dene Grigar : From a born-digital literature perspective, Peter, I am personally interested in VR as a way to be inside text
18:11:41 From Dene Grigar : The lack of the platonic separation of me and that
18:11:50 From Dene Grigar : Self and other
18:12:20 From Peter Wasilko : @Dene, did you see David Small’s early Media Lab work?
18:12:40 From Fabien Benetou : could be just pluggable, exposing the right interface to use that input, without the support it, not implementation but explaining how it could be done
18:13:55 From Rob Swigart : Dene I’m on board with born digital so I’m trying to absorb all the possibilities. This will be a very rich environment for still unknown experiences.
18:14:23 From Peter Wasilko : https://acg.media.mit.edu/projects/thesis/DSThesis.pdf
18:14:51 From Adam Wern : Voice input would be high on my list for stretch goals
18:18:03 From Rob Swigart : My POV voice is essential
18:18:16 From Dene Grigar : So, can we agree that we meet our obligations to Sloan with an eye to opportunities for expansion?
18:18:29 From Dene Grigar : There can be other grants
18:18:58 From Peter Wasilko : Another neat aspect of the 3D Connexion tech is that one could theoretically have multiple controllers in use at the same time, say one in each hand.
18:19:31 From Fabien Benetou : (what is Alan playing with… origami XR?)
18:21:06 From Peter Wasilko : Not necessarily now, just leave integration hooks in place.
18:21:22 From Dene Grigar : I need to get ready to head to campus.
18:21:43 From Fabien Benetou : Reacted to “I need to get read…” with 👋
18:22:06 From Dene Grigar : I am
18:27:49 From Fabien Benetou : Im too lazy for that, I used libraries
18:28:09 From Frode Hegland : Peter, you really, really need to get and use a modern headset for part of this discussion… 🙂
18:29:15 From Peter Wasilko : https://github.com/standard-webhooks/standard-webhooks
18:31:06 From Peter Wasilko : I can try to ping it from imba too.
18:31:20 From Fabien Benetou : you dont need auth
18:31:28 From Frode Hegland : Is there a way for the system to know it’s local?
18:31:46 From Peter Wasilko : It can tell if it is online or offline
18:32:10 From Peter Wasilko : Oh different sense of local
18:38:25 From Peter Wasilko : Back with coffee in hand.
18:39:23 From Leon van Kammen : no data = no spec
perhaps top ~5 usecases need to get identified to get to a spec, which could produce data & protocol
18:39:49 From Leon van Kammen : unless you write the spec after hacking something together 🙂
18:42:06 From Frode Hegland : For the test PDF: https://visual-meta.info/visual-meta-ai/
18:42:29 From Peter Wasilko : https://atjson.condenast.io/docs/getting-started
18:48:30 From Leon van Kammen : Ladies and gents, I have to take to care of something.
I will catch up by watching the recording tomorrow.
cheers!
18:49:08 From Mark Anderson : … must … fight … will … to … comment … on … PDF. 🤣
18:49:50 From Frode Hegland : Reacted to “… must … fight … wil…” with 😂
18:51:28 From Fabien Benetou : Reacted to “… must … fight …” with 😂
18:52:18 From Peter Wasilko : How about foo.pdf in the same folder as foo.vm for standoff Visual Meta or foo.vm.pdf for a pdf with embedded Visual Meta and a command line tool to turn foo.vm.pdf into foo.vm + foo.pdf or to turn foo.vm + foo.pdf into foo.vm.pdf?
18:53:46 From Peter Wasilko : Reacted to “… must … fight … wil…” with 😂
18:55:09 From Mark Anderson : Interesting to read the Sloan examiner’s comments. Unsurprisingly (and likely age related) there is a presumption that use of text in XR == reading as in a paper book today. Similarly, text interchange seems to be seem in terms of (epistolary) typing to one another. Happily, I think we already see a much richer interaction.
18:57:02 From Fabien Benetou : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidecar_file could also revert back to original if need be
18:59:17 From Mark Anderson : I like to think of the XR space more in a sense of a construct (Matrix!) or the ST holodeck. We only add skeuomorphic elements if needed. IOW they follow from the documents’/data’s rather than pre-emptive background. Saves computing objects we may not need. Don’t mean any of that dogmatically.
18:59:41 From Fabien Benetou : cutest knowledge graph I’ve seen I admit
18:59:50 From Mark Anderson : Reacted to “cutest knowledge gra…” with 👍🏻
18:59:51 From Peter Wasilko : Reacted to “https://en.m.wikiped…” with ❤️
19:00:03 From Peter Wasilko : Replying to “https://en.m.wikiped…”
I LOVE this concept!
19:00:23 From Peter Wasilko : Reacted to “I like to think of t…” with ❤️
19:00:23 From Frode Hegland : Maybe a Library document. PDF! OK, maybe plain text?…
19:00:32 From Fabien Benetou : for damn’s question on the library representation https://github.com/janeczku/calibre-web
19:00:58 From Fabien Benetou : s/damn/Adam/ damn
19:02:36 From Alan Laidlaw : Reacted to “cutest knowledge gra…” with 👍🏻
19:02:52 From Frode Hegland : Maybe a Library as RSS then?
19:04:33 From Peter Wasilko : And I’d love to have a compact way to represent the LateX source for a project in say a single YAML file with original data while support files referenced from a TeX distribution would just be incorporated by reference. Then we could full source access and not have to deal with inferring it from the rendered PDF.
19:04:43 From Peter Wasilko : Reacted to “Maybe a Library as R…” with 👍
19:05:14 From Brandel Zachernuk : Oh I have some work stuff, I will have to drop. This has been very productive!
19:05:14 From Alan Laidlaw : Is everyone familiar with ELO UnConference?
19:05:22 From Peter Wasilko : Time flies with a scintillating discussion like this!
19:05:27 From Alan Laidlaw : Deadline for proposals is dec 15
19:05:39 From Peter Wasilko : @Alan do you have url?
19:05:54 From Alan Laidlaw : https://dtc-wsuv.org/projects/access-works-conference/
19:06:09 From Mark Anderson : Reacted to “https://dtc-wsuv.org…” with 👍🏻
19:06:45 From Peter Wasilko : Reacted to “https://dtc-wsuv.org…” with 👍🏻
19:07:53 From Peter Wasilko : … must resist the urge to design an entirely new infrastructure from the ground up …
19:08:18 From Alan Laidlaw : Reacted to “… must resist the ur…” with 😂
19:09:31 From Rob Swigart : Must go now, greatly informative meeting
19:18:29 From Alan Laidlaw : Think about it as a game. The world and the interaction mechanism are codependent.
19:18:41 From Frode Hegland : Reacted to “Think about it as a …” with 👍
19:19:49 From Fabien Benetou : gotta go, take care, kudos again on the grant, let’s build sth interesting together
19:20:00 From Frode Hegland : What do you mean by grammar?
19:20:15 From Alan Laidlaw : For the record, I very much want to be an XR specialist. I think there are entirely new UX opportunities and there are even concepts for what a true XR “wireframe” would contain.
19:20:16 From Mark Anderson : My dataset actually has all authors as data points Tinderbox notes!). Authors are also normalised for name variants. The later isn’t in the current dataset but just ask.
19:21:01 From Alan Laidlaw : Sorry, – aren’t concepts. Wireframes shouldn’t work in XR. like send morse code when you have a telephone
19:21:21 From Alan Laidlaw : Gotta go, all
19:21:30 From Frode Hegland : Later
19:24:26 From Peter Wasilko : Same PEG production: Name = FirstName LastName / Nickname
19:24:55 From Peter Wasilko : Which means match a first name then a land name or assume it is all just a nickname
19:25:25 From Adam Wern To Frode Hegland(privately) : Can someone save this chat and email. Cant save on mobile
19:25:43 From Peter Wasilko : I really should skin the PEG grammar definition grammar with a quasi natural language syntax!
19:25:54 From Frode Hegland To Adam Wern(privately) : Reacted to “Can someone save thi…” with 👍
19:31:54 From Peter Wasilko : … must resist the urge to reinvent LaTeX …
19:34:53 From Mark Anderson : My HT’22 paper in HTML form: https://www.shoantel.com/proj/acm-ht/Hypertext-meta-history/index.html#foot-fn1
19:34:53 From Peter Wasilko : For transfer protocol {grammar: “visual-meta.peg”, intent: “merge”, text: “… yadda yadda yadda …”}
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