13 jan 2025 (Text in Non-Euclidian Space) 

AI: Summary

The meeting explored non-Euclidean geometry in the context of XR spaces, discussing how moving beyond traditional spatial constraints could enhance human communication and understanding. Key themes included the psychological and physiological impacts of non-traditional spaces, the relationship between space and language, and the potential applications in scholarly and creative work. The discussion highlighted the importance of exploring these concepts before they become commercialized by major corporations, with emphasis on the unique opportunity presented by current technological developments in XR.

[Original listing in the Schedule]

Frode Hegland, Dene Grigar, Fabien Benetou, Brandel Zachernuk, Peter Wasilko, Leon Van Kammen, Mark Anderson, Karl Arthur Smink, Rob Swigart, Stephanie Strickland, Claus Atzenbek, Chris Gebhardt

The meeting was focused on discussing non-Euclidean geometry and its implications for XR spaces, with particular emphasis on how this could change our understanding of spatial relationships and communication. The discussion involved both theoretical concepts and practical applications.

AI: Speaker Summary

Dene Grigar focused on the educational and scholarly implications of non-Euclidean spaces in XR, drawing from her experience with virtual worlds and Aboriginal songlines. She emphasized the importance of exploring these concepts before corporate interests dominate the space, and highlighted how changing environments affect our thinking and communication.

Fabien Benetou presented technical demonstrations and examples of non-Euclidean spaces in games and VR experiences. He emphasized the importance of making XR spaces “weird” rather than simply replicating reality, suggesting that unusual spatial relationships could enhance our understanding and interaction with information.

Brandel Zachernuk contributed insights about human spatial perception and adaptation, particularly regarding the vergence-accommodation relationship in VR and how humans can adapt to non-traditional spatial relationships given consistent feedback mechanisms.

Stephanie Strickland raised important questions about the biological and cognitive impacts of non-Euclidean spaces, particularly concerning reading and communication in three-dimensional environments.

Frode Hegland emphasized the timeliness of exploring these concepts, noting that this is a unique moment in history before XR becomes commonplace. He focused on the potential for improved human communication and understanding through new spatial paradigms.

Leon Van Kammen discussed the distinction between explicit and implicit navigation in non-Euclidean spaces, comparing it to experiences like reading books or listening to music.

Claus Atzenbek provided insights about spatial hypertext and questioned what problems non-Euclidean spaces might solve that cannot be solved in traditional spaces.

Peter Wasilko shared technical insights about redirected walking and other VR techniques, referencing Curtis Hickman’s work and various implementations.

Mark Anderson contributed perspectives on the relationship between non-Euclidean navigation and hypertext, drawing parallels with maritime navigation experiences.

Karl Arthur Smink offered technical insights about geometry and game development, emphasizing the importance of user control in information flow.

Rob Swigart mentioned historical context about map projections and their implications for spatial understanding.

AI: Topics Discussed

WebXR:
Portal rendering techniques in WebXR
Using stencil buffers for portal effects
Integration with existing web technologies
Leon van Kammen’s work with WebXR and portals

Gestures:
Hand tracking in VR environments
Body movement in VR spaces
The importance of consistent feedback for gesture interactions
Multiple dimensions of control in human hand movements (27 degrees of freedom)

Other Topics:
Non-Euclidean geometry and its applications in XR
Psychological and physiological impacts of VR
Aboriginal songlines and cultural perspectives on space
Game design and spatial manipulation
Spatial hypertext
Children’s interaction with VR
Mathematical perspectives on dimensionality
Dreams and their relationship to non-Euclidean thinking

AI: Interesting Anecdotes

Dene Grigar shared her experience growing up in Texas with an unobstructed view of the horizon, which shaped her perspective on limitations and possibilities.

Frode Hegland shared an anecdote about his son Edgar’s interaction with VR, hitting a door and understanding the difference between physical and virtual reality.

Mark Anderson shared his experience of watch-keeping at sea in total darkness, relating it to natural human adaptation to different spatial awareness.

Brandel Zachernuk’s virtual background inadvertently made him disappear when he moved too close to the camera, which was noted as an interesting parallel to discussions about perception and reality.

AI: Concepts Introduced

Non-Euclidean Geometry – Defined through discussion as geometry that goes beyond traditional parallel lines and 180-degree angles, particularly in relation to curved or hyperbolic spaces.

Redirected Walking – Peter Wasilko explained this as a technique where VR systems can make users feel they’re walking in a straight line while actually moving in a circle.

Vergence-accommodation Link – Brandel Zachernuk explained this as the relationship between eye focusing and convergence, particularly important for children’s development in VR.

Local vs Global Non-Euclidean Space – Fabien Benetou introduced this distinction, where spaces can be non-Euclidean in specific areas while remaining Euclidean overall.

Spatial Hypertext – Discussed by Claus Atzenbek as a way of representing information in space, originally in 2D but potentially expandable to more dimensions.

AI: People Mentioned

Ted Nelson – mentioned by Frode Hegland regarding multi-dimensional text perspectives
Eduardo Kac – mentioned by Dene Grigar regarding Space Poetry
J. David Bolter – mentioned by Dene Grigar regarding his book “Writing Space”
Curtis Hickman – mentioned by Peter Wasilko regarding VR design and magic
Bob Horn – mentioned by Dene Grigar regarding upcoming presentation on hypertext mapping
Don Stein – mentioned by Dene Grigar as potential future speaker
Bob Stein – mentioned by Dene Grigar as potential future speaker
William Dickey – mentioned by Dene Grigar regarding HyperCard work
Matt Kirschenbaum – mentioned by Dene Grigar regarding emulation of Dickey’s work
Margie Luesebrink – mentioned by Dene Grigar regarding Egypt work
Stephanie Strickland – mentioned as participant
Trump – mentioned in context of Greenland size perception on maps
Picasso – mentioned by Frode Hegland regarding dimensional representation
Euclid – discussed in context of geometric principles
Alice – referenced regarding dimensional changes in Alice in Wonderland
Bezos – mentioned regarding space mission

AI: Product or Company Names Mentioned

Beat Saber – mentioned by Dene Grigar as VR application
Supernatural fitness – mentioned by Dene Grigar as VR application
Apple Vision Pro – mentioned by Dene Grigar as VR headset
Microsoft Word – mentioned as something to avoid replicating in XR
Star Wars – mentioned regarding screen time
Star Trek – mentioned regarding aesthetic
Portal – mentioned as game example
Manifold Garden – mentioned as game example
HyperCard – mentioned regarding William Dickey’s work
Hyperbolica – mentioned as game example
three.js – mentioned regarding development
Quest 3 – mentioned regarding portal demo
DOOM – mentioned by Frode Hegland regarding early gaming experience
Silo – mentioned regarding non-Euclidean spaces
Internet Archive – mentioned regarding preservation

AI: Agreements & Disagreements

Agreements:

  • General agreement that this is a unique moment in history to explore XR spaces before corporate interests dominate
  • Consensus that human adaptability to non-traditional spaces is remarkable
  • Agreement on the importance of gradual introduction to non-Euclidean spaces
  • Shared understanding that current technology limitations should not constrain exploration of possibilities

Disagreements:

  • Some debate about whether “non-Euclidean” is the best term for what was being discussed
  • Different perspectives on the potential risks and benefits of exposing people to non-traditional spaces
  • Varying views on whether new spatial paradigms need to solve specific problems or can be valuable for exploration alone

AI: Other

The meeting demonstrated a unique intersection of technical, philosophical, and practical considerations in spatial computing. It was notable how the discussion naturally flowed between highly technical aspects and humanistic concerns about perception and communication.

Chat Log URLs:

https://futuretextlab.info/2025-schedule/
https://futuretextlab.info/2024/12/16/13-jan-2025/
https://news.uci.edu/magazines/articles/flipped-reality/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redirected_walking
https://www.curtishickman.com
https://manifold.garden
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtlDND7NVp8
https://thunderfulgames.com/games/viewfinder/
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1256230/Hyperbolica/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_cell
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/lewis-carrolls-shifting-reputation-9432378/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penrose_triangle
https://discourse.threejs.org/t/portal-rendering-with-stencil-buffer/22425

Chat Log Summary:

The chat log showed active parallel discussions that complemented the main conversation, including:

  • Sharing of relevant technical resources and game examples
  • Discussion of screen time impacts on child development
  • Links to mathematical concepts and visual illusions
  • Additional context for topics mentioned in the main discussion
  • Technical clarifications about non-Euclidean geometry
  • Personal anecdotes and experiences with spatial perception
  • References to relevant articles and research

Why is the topic of the future of spaces in XR important?

The importance of this topic stems from several key factors:

  1. Timing: As emphasized in the meeting, this is a unique moment in history before XR becomes commonplace. The community has an opportunity to influence how spatial computing develops before corporate interests dominate the space.
  2. Human Understanding: Non-Euclidean spaces in XR offer potential new ways for humans to understand and communicate complex ideas, potentially transcending limitations of traditional 2D communication.
  3. Scholarly Impact: There are significant implications for how academic and scholarly work might be conducted and presented in spatial computing environments.
  4. Technological Evolution: As XR technology improves, understanding how to effectively use non-traditional spaces becomes increasingly important for future applications.
  5. Cognitive Adaptation: Understanding how humans adapt to and interact with non-traditional spaces is crucial for developing effective and safe XR experiences.
  6. Cultural Implications: The way we think about and interact with space has profound cultural implications, as illustrated by examples like Aboriginal songlines and dream experiences.
  7. Educational Potential: New spatial paradigms could fundamentally change how we teach and learn, making complex concepts more accessible through spatial understanding.
  8. Communication Enhancement: These new spatial paradigms could provide richer ways for people to share their perspectives and worldviews, potentially improving cross-cultural and interpersonal understanding.

This topic represents a fundamental shift in how humans might interact with information and each other in the future, making it crucial to explore and understand its implications now.

1 comment

Leave a comment

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *