CC text : 3 October 2022

17:25:42 and then Lena would ask the question, Will, then could it be better in virtual reality?
17:25:48 Let me know that’s one question one could ask another question is how could we?
17:25:55 How if if it’s a if it’s and an imperfect outline, how imperfect is it?
17:26:02 Is it. 80% is it 30 it’s 50%.
17:26:08 I don’t know, I haven’t never seen it maybe you know. and and we would build on that, because you could build on those kind of structures.
17:26:18 If you know if if they’re if they’re if they’re up around 80%.
17:26:21 You could build on them. This is what I use for us.
17:26:26 I use hang on to move the big panel here it’s called sonics, and it’s actually amazing.
17:26:35 You know this happens to be one of our general meeting.
17:26:39 But just have a look at this right it it’s I would say it’s 90 95% accurate.
17:26:45 That’s a transcription that’s transcription right yeah, but that’s what .
17:26:50 Is that in my understanding what what difference is you you’re calling our attention to But well, other is also basically transcription. Right?
17:27:00 Yeah, I can share my screen. If it’ll help I just say what?
17:27:05 Yeah, Okay, yeah, do that, please it. It is transcription it’s not like anything fancy it’s it’s really just
17:27:14 You mentioned summer. he does a remarkably good job of it.
17:27:17 Oh, go ahead! Sorry You mentioned summary as a function as well, I think, is what Bob is curious about.
17:27:24 So That’s right so you can see here this is the This is the particular conversation going on, and then here’s a an outline.
17:27:37 It’s a beta product that they’ve you know put out where they say like, I think this is what they’re talking about from paragraph paragraph. But what’s interesting.
17:27:45 Is that I mean it does a pretty good job of recognizing.
17:27:47 Say solid is a rather new framework right and and it’s an odd thing to say in a sentence, because it already has so many other meetings.
17:27:57 But it’s smart enough to recognize solid capitalize it as a as a proper.
17:28:02 Now, you know, as a noun and then deploy in 6 k per page was fact.
17:28:07 I mean that’s a rather coded domain specific kind of term.
17:28:12 That whole sentence in it did a good job there could be because it’s tech industry, you know.
17:28:16 And So yeah, it’s it’s pretty good all right.
17:28:22 Call that I would call it transcription and summarize and and and
17:28:29 Well, maybe summarizer, but not an outlooker. I mean, even though they call it an outliner.
17:28:36 Well, yeah, yeah, it doesn’t have a structure any structure of an outline that I can see.
17:28:41 And yeah, not getting literal with this at all. The The only value of this, and the only reason I brought it up is that my my point is that even bad markers can be helpful indicators even if you have a sign that tells you the
17:28:55 wrong name of the road, you could still be like that road sign with the wrong road.
17:28:59 Name is where I need to turn left Right? Yeah, I agree. you know.
17:29:07 And and transcriber, summarizer is the first step for an outliner.
17:29:12 How do we build on that? How do we? You know, How does How does one structure, then?
17:29:19 The conversation that’s that’s happening because an outline is is going up is gonna put similar things together, so to speak, different things in different places.
17:29:32 Right, and maybe hierarchy higher arctic a why Zoom, I can’t say the word that them in some sort of fashion.
17:29:40 That would be the next step to to to see what we’re trying the but it’s something that’s very interesting.
17:29:50 I feel I feel very much sympathy for the designers and developers of these kinds of products right? because i’m sure that they want an outliner, but they have to be like Well, our our version of trying to
17:30:01 summarize these is only going to be like 30% success rate.
17:30:04 To begin with, so to double down and outline on top of that is is gonna, you know, limit the success Even further.
17:30:12 I’m. assuming that what they’ll be doing is once they get a better gist of the conversation is what they’re going, for then they will allow the user to create their outlines from there.
17:30:24 Perhaps a step before automatically creating outlines anyway.
17:30:29 It’s an interesting way of doing product. and I also have a great sympathy for people who are trying to do that because .
17:30:37 I try to do that all my life it’s hard it’s really hard.
17:30:43 So i’m. that’s why I jumped on you’re description of this. Because I thought Oh, boy, there’s a breakthrough.
17:30:50 Wow know. and and and it’s hard you know and I realize that even if it’s 80%, the last 20% is really hard and in fact, i’ll say if you’ve got 80%, the last 40%, is still.
17:31:07 hard. Yeah, Exactly. So this is how it’s been approached in the book so far, and it is just editorially, instead of just having reams of text doing bullets and headings as much as possible.
17:31:24 From speech. so it’s almost like a manual thing. but it’s easier to read than this right, thank you.
17:31:31 That’s great. Yeah. looks good as the nineteenth century in this group.
17:31:39 The nineteenth century representative I confess that i’m taking handwritten notes, and relative to your point Allen I’d say my handwritten notes are probably 30% successful, but they’re still useful to
17:31:57 me because they are a trigger which activates my memory.
17:32:04 That I couldn’t otherwise do so when you’re talking about a transcriber being 60 or 70% accurate.
17:32:12 I basically want a copy of what you’re using or what fraud is using because that’s much more useful than what I’m doing.
17:32:21 I mean it’s it’s much more I would say it’s way over 90%.
17:32:25 But on the on this transcription kind of aspect. One of the things that also stood out working in depth at the book over the last few days is the monthly presentations.
17:32:37 We have are 2 h long rather than 10 min plus 10 min dialogue.
17:32:42 There’s so much more meat there I don’t mind editing those you know.
17:32:49 I don’t mind spending it literally takes a full day as Mark.
17:32:51 No, He’s been doing it, too. so i’m wondering what is the appetite in the group for really up prioritizing, having monthly guest presentations from these amazing people, properly transcribing them properly.
17:33:05 marking them up and really building the journal, so that every year we have the symposium plus.
17:33:11 We really prioritize the journal articles as part of that volume?
17:33:16 Yeah, I mean, that sounds that sounds good, I i’d be happy to, to to watch and participate in those.
17:33:25 It would be a a nice function back to the to the question of the the summary, and and what’s good and Npr.
17:33:33 And all of those kinds of things. I I think an inevitable sort of confrontation that has to happen is like, what, What for?
17:33:40 What do you want to get out of it? And One of the things that would be useful for me would be prompts for what it is.
17:33:49 What is my response? and how can I encode that as well as having information about the thing itself?
17:33:54 You know being sort of relatively so potentially egocentric, I i’m able to sort of comprehend and most many things, and and go like What does this mean for me?
17:34:07 What does this make me want to think about? What does this make me wanna wanna wanna do?
17:34:12 But yeah, like the the the function of a summary of the Symposium, the function of the summary of a of the other stuff.
17:34:20 Is it to to seek further study, like just to seek further subjects, to, to to go into?
17:34:27 Is it to reflect personally, or is it to compare and be able to make those connections?
17:34:33 One of the things that was really funny about going to the Natural History Museum is the way that in the main hall, where there’s the big whale scout, and there are a little chambers off to the side immediately off to the
17:34:45 side, and they cover the major basis of like seaweed and my subpoena and and and other things.
17:34:52 And it was really interesting to see the way in which obviously this is a wonderful monument to natural history and everything like that.
17:34:58 But you know all of the captions on them were like.
17:35:01 Here are some seaweed it’s real cool we’ve got just so much.
17:35:05 See, you guys, and if you’re interested then come hit us up and it it.
17:35:10 It became very clear in so many words, you know. Obviously they use different language there.
17:35:15 But it made it made it really clear that these were home pages.
17:35:17 These were landing pages for people whose special interests may include seaweed or mysupials, or or other small line mammals and stuff like that.
17:35:27 And And the way that they were yeah, like these, these these home pages.
17:35:31 If this was a website, then those were those things to say like here’s a thing.
17:35:35 It’s pretty interesting, if you’re into if if you if you’re not into it then that’s fine.
17:35:39 But if you are into it, then you know if this is something that you’re gonna latch onto.
17:35:45 Then here is the information about it that should make it that much more appealing.
17:35:48 Now that was, I was really struck by that as as an advertisement.
17:35:52 That was kind of nestled. in these things as like this is if you’re if this tickles your fancy and you can make it your life’s work, then then here’s kind of where to come to it yeah, just
17:36:05 that that that sort of implicit call to action was really was really pleasing to.
17:36:11 To take note of love It a couple of quick thoughts on that.
17:36:16 And I do actually the the summarization. And Jim, what you would, you mentioned about the personal notes and how it means things to you.
17:36:24 That is a different topic I wanna dive into, because it actually kind of like gets close to what I was hoping to get to towards in the Symposium.
17:36:31 But directly to the natural history example, which is such great example reminds me of a couple of things first. i’ll say that figuring out how this works in Vr I think, is an arbitrary constraint that we put
17:36:47 on ourselves, knowing in the background that it moving towards vr in that we’re all sympathetic towards 2 vr ar etc., is, I think, a lot of times in a lot of the conversations we have good enough to
17:37:03 move things, but like it’s sometimes as an unnecessary stressor to say, we have this Pdf.
17:37:09 Now, how is it going to work in vr right so just putting that out there? and and that I believe that that Ar. Vr is is the the necessary propellant to change interface patterns?
17:37:21 And i’m excited about it. okay that’s it an example I came across.
17:37:26 It was very intriguing to me is ray Dalio’s book, Principles and this newer book.
17:37:33 How the world, the world change of world order the book itself is clearly thought out.
17:37:40 He’s clearly put a lot of passion into it because you have several ways to navigate it with a very big print, or or or find colors to to help you, since.
17:37:51 Oh, this is a principle, or this is the thing I could skim over.
17:37:54 This is a personal detail, so that’s interesting work it’s really interesting is that he also created an app called principles and action. And in this app you can really get the entire content of the book for free as well as Youtube videos that he’s
17:38:08 made, and animations that are high quality. and you also get to choose a kind of method of interaction.
17:38:13 If you want. If you want to get a principle of the day, you can right.
17:38:19 You can learn how to, if you like, really get buy into a live love this stuff.
17:38:23 You can have it become part of your everyday life I mentioned that because it’s such an excellent way of saying, here’s the first artifact, the book.
17:38:34 Now we’re going to fold it in these various ways animation for Youtube application here for someone who wants a part of their daily life.
17:38:41 And I think there’s a great opportunity for future of text that way right?
17:38:47 Because personally, if I if I hear a little bit of Barbara’s very key, i’m not gonna necessarily go on and read the rest of her article in future of text i’m gonna go straight to the source
17:38:58 i’m going to read a book right I want I want that context, and then maybe afterwards i’ll go and skim the article or the the talk.
17:39:06 Right, but I want to. I want a thing to point me to.
17:39:10 You know this is a person who’s thought deeply about all of this here’s where to find your thoughts or hear her top-level thoughts being able to get something like that in the form of an app is kind of compelling even if just 3
17:39:21 people downloaded. it would be kind of interesting so That’s That’s the idea from the the whale and the homepages, because I totally agree that’s a great it’s a great way to do a
17:39:32 Museum. Yeah, I I obviously have to jump in on that very positively.
17:39:38 But first of all, my definition of Vr is very simple.
17:39:40 It just means for that visual limitations that’s all it means So you know it’s just could be anything.
17:39:49 Also when you talk about optimal this stuff, in the case of Barbara, it’s it’s my dad you happen to mention her because 2 things happened for one, as i’ve shown you guys a few times.
17:40:01 Now. but it’s part reason. so where is she you know i’ve actually bothered really lay it up readably.
17:40:10 You know this is so you know, she spoke all of this stuff with slides right?
17:40:15 And then, secondly, there’s this I just got an email a few minutes ago, inspired by last breakup again, writing a new piece Right?
17:40:23 Oh, wonderful. So So the reason Yeah, thank you i’m i’m very happy about that, too. But the reason i’m i’m highlighting.
17:40:33 That is I do. I I feel a little bit emboldened to be honest with you guys.
17:40:37 After last week we have a great community, We have great dialogue, so I feel more emboldened to be a stronger editor both in what we take and what we don’t take but also, how we show it you
17:40:48 know I was really worried about doing the boulding a few months ago, and that got good response.
17:40:54 You know, if you guys read something that has been bolded and you think it’s the wrong building. You just tell me you know i’ll change it. right? That’s the community.
17:41:00 We have. we have to make actions, but we can also change them So when you’re talking about different ways to present it.
17:41:08 I first of all I do think that people if they come across Barbara in this work they would read this just because it’s shorter before reading her books.
17:41:18 But I do also think that citations and addressing is so crucial to this kind of stuff that whenever she talks about some stuff, we should somehow make it possible to find out a in the shortest connection to her previous work
17:41:32 on some stuff, right? she’s not gonna cite page 83 on her book, necessarily.
17:41:40 But if we could somehow do that, when you’re reading a sentence in our work to instantly go back into her work, I think your provocation there is useful.
17:41:52 I tried to, and you know like with the images you had, you know, making sure it’s the right citation and all of that stuff.
17:41:58 But I think your thought about how to how does that person go into that person’s previous work is incredibly valuable, because then we become kind of the Djs of this we become the curator right? right?
17:42:12 And it’s stuff that like I think a lot of people are interested in.
17:42:13 But there is a way more powerful and visible barrier than we like to recognize, and it can be in the form as simple as Oh, this book is this big and I have this much free time, and I wind up reading huge books, in
17:42:29 ebook form, and not realizing until I see the physical book that I actually poured through something that I never would have picked up in the bookstore because it was like that.
17:42:38 Right it’s a weird cognitive bias or hack or Blind Spot and
17:42:46 It would be wild to use future of text as a as an organ, to get people past those things and make it more accessible, make very few more accessible.
17:42:57 And I think that’s very very interesting to see if Mark has his hand up.
17:43:02 But sorry I just want to make sure we have agreed that the monthly presentations we’re really gonna value right?
17:43:08 That’s a lot of nodes for that good so We’ll have to all of us suggest who to interview I was Jared.
17:43:14 If he wants to come back and complete this presentation cause there’s a few things they didn’t talk about.
17:43:19 Also the the annual symposium next year is going to be 5 min presentations, which is what it used to be, because we should know about your work already.
17:43:27 It should be the dialogue afterwards, because what really marked the previous one was, you know, with the lack of communication.
17:43:35 Some people talked way over their 10 min, and that was a question that when are you gonna stop?
17:43:39 And it became a bit messy. So if you have something long to say, you come from our monthly presentation.
17:43:45 That means we have some content. So that means that one of the things we probably have to do, as you’ve said many times, long time ago.
17:43:51 Well, and probably need a podcast. can be that hard to organize.
17:43:54 You know. maybe we do build an up, but we also need to look at the framework for for this.
17:44:01 So i’m just very happy with this dialogue Mark. Sorry for yeah.
17:44:05 It was simply the one you’re talking about as you put all the extra work into.
17:44:09 I’m just interested to see how the affects really the buildings you put in collapse stone, because now even a sense got a well worked example, and we can just see how that looks.
17:44:22 I mean maybe that’s something one shouldn’t seek to do, and the the highlighting is just there is a problem.
17:44:29 But I was just wondering what it you know what it what it looked like.
17:44:32 What we take from them. Yes, more importantly though? grandpa Where’d you get that call, Jacket being discussed?
17:44:45 I got it. I My page is gonna like it.
17:44:50 I guess it from a place called cyber dog Wow! nice that’s an apple own that name I I think maybe it abandoned some some a couple of decades ago by but I think I I think having stuff I actually
17:45:10 labored that labeled cyber dog Yes, it’s a stored linen.
17:45:14 It’s gonna be it’s gonna be pretty entertaining and provocative where it works used to have a cyber dog pen.
17:45:23 Do you remember those? They had the little footprints on the pen body and the cord wrapped around it so you could hang it over your neck, and eventually it ran out of ink.
17:45:33 Okay, Yeah. So Mark, you brought up a really important point.
17:45:39 But just this particular view spec warrant and edit, where everything else is removed. I think we need to get to a point where we can start trying these things.
17:45:48 You know there are so many different ways to do it.
17:45:52 But at a certain point you really need to be able to read Jarens thoughts properly much deeper than I realized when I saw it.
17:46:01 And of course Vienna is completely right. Chances are you might not want to read that in V or or whatever, but you need that space.
17:46:08 By the way, the layout of the book it’s very intentional.
17:46:12 Everything about the book is intentional to be read as a 2 page spread, but that’s only the book fighting for itself digital to page spread, you know.
17:46:20 If somebody takes it upon themselves to have a Vr version of the book.
17:46:24 You know you fight for what that will be. And hopefully, the same underlying stuff will work in both environments, right
17:46:34 I mean also in terms of the people presented. There are some categories, though.
17:46:42 Artists implementers. Yeah, theory slash academics there are some things So I’m wondering if we should make that even more explicit.
17:46:51 For instance, we used to have guest presenter plus demo, you know we made the demo once quite specific product download.
17:47:00 Maybe what we need to do now is have a more technical implementation track.
17:47:04 Maybe, Fabian, you would like to head that, cause you seem very much in that mode on how to teach people how to do that.
17:47:10 I can before you even nod your head or not, I can imagine.
17:47:16 So okay, that was easy. Can imagine someone reading a Ken Parland getting expired by something there.
17:47:20 And then you know, how do I do it? And in this orbit there is a How do I do it?
17:47:32 That’s it’s interesting it’s something I think about a lot, and I think even in the in the few examples are brought up.
17:47:41 It becomes complicated as we’re all aware right like at what point is Ken talking about affordances and possibilities versus history versus creation, I mean he touched on all of those right versus jaren
17:48:05 who is, you know, again much deeper into history. but he wasn’t presenting anything that he built.
17:48:11 So his was more speculative. Right? Yeah. So what?
17:48:18 What are the actual cornerstones or boundaries that that you’ll use to bounce these these article the the content of the articles off of each other right i’m imagining a radar map or something and
17:48:30 this one has these components it’s it’s such an interesting simple and timeless problem that we always seem to to fail at.
17:48:42 So maybe just the simple categories are the best. But if, there is interest in like novel categorizations, it would be pretty interesting to see, like an appendix of metaphors that have been used you know, and
17:48:58 then that isn’t quite accurate either because it’s Still, just if there’s a goal for any of this, it should be how to summarize, and how to like bring up this massive amount of content under some sort of
17:49:14 gestalt understanding. Yeah, that there is a huge yes, but here and the yes.
17:49:20 But it is, it is large, but it’s not beyond here scale right?
17:49:27 So, for instance, this is looking at what you’re talking about now, and what’s Mark talked about right? So this is Sharon, if you only look at the bolts you really should have a pretty good clue What’s going
17:49:38 on right. I love it. So thank you. The the magical thing about Okay.
17:49:46 So one thing that I wanted to do with author I saw somewhere that Italic is highlight and sentence bold is highlight on the page, which was really really fascinating.
17:49:55 So of course you can do bolding in different ways.
17:49:57 It could be color, doesn’t have to be big in black right but it means skimmable to actually have the full text with Bold.
17:50:05 Does the obviously magical thing of. If you read so what does this program actually do, you can keep reading it’s right there.
17:50:10 You don’t have to do anything to get the further stuff alright.
17:50:18 So if we just within our community, look at these types of things, and you know, of course it that can be Gps and all kinds of good stuff.
17:50:25 But then we also work together on this stuff. The the glossary was currently the glossary here is, you know, really simple
17:50:38 Right, but it allows you to go around, and you know, and look at a few things.
17:50:45 And if we do, if we manage to have a mechanism where we can do that together, right?
17:50:52 And also I would really like to have competing glossaries.
17:50:55 For instance, Bob Horns murals a very specific bob horn advanced murals.
17:50:59 They’re not the same as the side of the roman villa. But let’s say there wasn’t a historian here, and they wanted to talk about that kind of mural it’s absolutely fine we just have to make sure really clear
17:51:08 for the radar. who’s closer entry they are dealing with currently the Glossary is all mine mine mine, cause it was designed that way.
17:51:17 Can’t we make a community glossary yeah it’d be really funny.
17:51:23 A future where someone could get hegel’s future of text versus laid laws future of text same content completely different emphasis.
17:51:36 You know that’s a really good point that’s a really good point.
17:51:40 I mean I would, because the douglas liquid format is basically Jason with a bit of rtf and stuff, right?
17:51:45 I wouldn’t mind if we had you know one person puts everything in, you know.
17:51:51 So mark and I work on that together so it’s only one that’s fine.
17:51:54 But once it’s there in the basic form to do different you know we talked about buying things before.
17:52:00 How many things are we looking at in one space, one volume, but also what is the view?
17:52:06 Spec it will be. I would love to be able to have on the first page.
17:52:09 This book is edited by so and so. these people have chosen to have their own versions of it, you know tap, hair, and the book reformats itself to be really really valuable, because I can work in in pdf and whatever
17:52:27 right. It’ll just remind me of you could and then, burns Euclid, and then another derivation off of Burns Euclid, which is the the website where the person made Svgs of Burns
17:52:42 Euclid and it’s all they’re all building on the same ideas.
17:52:47 But they’re beautiful reinterpretations
17:52:53 On the topic of boy. i’ll be right back I don’t know what you were talking about.
17:52:59 There burned, you could
17:53:05 Me neither, but i’m stupid enough just to nod along I can explain you know if it’s important that’s what one would try to follow up on. I felt he was just referring to 3 different versions
17:53:18 of something. But yes, it would be nice to know the specifics.
17:53:23 Do. I can explain a little bit. So Euclid is a geometer somebody who came up with and was one of the price best to sort of enunciations of geometric relationships.
17:53:35 So visual Pythagoras and stuff.
17:53:42 Oliver Burn did a good visual version of Brennan. Oh, of the Euclid stuff.
17:53:47 Yeah, Oh, Mark, that’s why I have such a good what did Mark already have it.
17:53:53 Yeah, we both pulled it out at the same time that’s not the sort of movie we’re making on on the note about bold, though, just to give a quick tour of this because I think Dalio is actually very sensitive
17:54:12 to design. let’s see in in pages that are like just fully, you know, a simple concept.
17:54:19 He starts with good breakdown of sections and bold throughout.
17:54:26 But then he’ll also have sections that have read text that indicate Hey, this is a principle right?
17:54:34 This is a principle to focus on, and then what you see is in later areas, full.
17:54:40 Huge principles. Take up the center space, which is a nice kind of like intermission, if you will, and then
17:54:48 He goes into greater detail for each one with a with a, sometimes a an image attached.
17:54:54 But and then graphs, and you can refer to these throughout the book.
17:54:58 Right and it’s the great way to anchor and it’s kind of like activate your mind in a different way while reading it.
17:55:06 So just trying to look at The one thing I think we discussed on Friday was related to that, and was the idea of pullet quotes, or whatever they call.
17:55:16 When you read a magazine sometimes there’s a large bit of text that’s also in the smaller text, but it’s a pull out.
17:55:20 Quote. So one thing that hopefully we can do is to encourage our contributors to tell us what they want to have feature.
17:55:30 Beg you like this is the screaming big thing that i’m talking about.
17:55:33 That will be really wonderful. Yeah. I even think a a section near the front that could be like a a
17:55:42 Of just here are the most important or most loved, whatever paragraphs or sentence from each of these talks, so you could very quickly get a sense of the brilliant insights that are in store for you if you continue
17:55:57 reading.
17:56:01 So that’s a nice one. You could have you could have what the right of thought was made interesting.
17:56:10 Then what the what the reader thought was most interesting, across which may not align.
17:56:14 Okay, right quickly. I bob I sent you an email of the website. that relates to the book that allen just showed It’s It’s a I mean it’s it’s it’s somebody’s one
17:56:26 is it’s a wonderful bit of work that they just it’s beautiful as beautiful as book is indeed.
17:56:32 No. this one the burns you clip. Okay, This was done.
17:56:42 I think back in the 18 hundreds if I were elementary, anyway.
17:56:45 So this is the recent facsimile reprint essentially Oh,
17:56:49 It’s passion T. A. s C. h e n German publisher. that’s also high end up. books. you got a link to the guy who made the put it in the web so I put it in the side box.
17:57:02 It’s C 80 c 2 dot net slash Euclid, i’m guessing I wasn’t making that relation. But the dalio’s book definitely has a strong graphic design that like
17:57:21 he he doesn’t Clearly doesn’t care about trying to look stuffy He’s like let’s make this comprehensible to the general audience.
17:57:28 Should I admire.
17:57:33 Also, Ellen, I have most of his books also be you know partially read, but the formatting is very helpful.
17:57:45 Yeah, I I it’s funny because I find the I I want to feel like his observations are more stunning than they are like.
17:57:55 I I want to be in favor like he’s got a huge heart, and saying this, he’s clearly put a lot of himself into it.
17:58:03 But then I start reading it. I’m kind of like Oh, man, this is boring, anyway. Fabian.
17:58:09 Sorry you had the hand up for a while yeah no worries no I’m. i’m. thinking also if we take some food bolding of a text.
17:58:21 Why should it be only him shouldn’t all of us if we want?
17:58:24 And if we can do it so and that either we have let’s say that we have the sum of all those building that might have overlap might not or the specific person is I want to see the building from that specific
17:58:42 person, and if we’re to have one it’s a first document, let’s say, the book, and have then sharing to a centralized place all the different highlighting then it could be also a way to have those different
17:58:57 perspectives totally. I I think it makes sense to to do that, except for bullet pointing, and that kind of level, formatting.
17:59:09 Kristen is probably editorial consistency of of how that is done.
17:59:13 But that’s just another layer Yes, it would be absolutely good if we can choose.
17:59:18 Who’s highlighting. We see because that could go towards what we just talked about, you know.
17:59:27 Different kind of additions.
17:59:28 Agreed on several several conversations away from that. but if it were that was set, then it would be very interesting to first time, I guess.
17:59:38 Format the pdf, so that there’s more white space under the right side or on the leaf
17:59:48 And then, in areas where there are highlights or bold, you would see like a color dot off outside of the actual text, indicating which one of us folded that.
17:59:57 And so you could see some that would have like 6 colors and some that would have 2.
18:00:03 And then in an interactive format, you could like click on one of those dots and see.
18:00:07 Oh, that these are all the things that this color has found interesting, simple web navigation.
18:00:14 There. let me mention a a cautionary view I am one of the world’s most voluminous underliners and highlighters.
18:00:26 I get in a rhythm, and I highlight about 5 times as much as I should so.
18:00:35 So there are arguments against collective highlighting as well.
18:00:42 A 100% agree. Hi! I I when I read kindle books and I see the the the things that like the the public has outlined many times, it’s humorous to me, because I think how I must be screwing up their
18:00:56 experience, because i’m like essentially highlighting the whole book, Bob good naturedly, has seen some of the books I’ve underlined, and he smiles politely.
18:01:10 Yeah, but there are different kinds of underlines, too. and if we have this thing of who underlined, we can show who to see.
18:01:19 But some of it, you know, on a paper book because I love destroying my paper books.
18:01:23 That’s how I own them you know destroy me in a fun way, if it’s something you know underlined.
18:01:28 But if it’s really important I circle it like crazy if it’s a whole paragraph, I do things.
18:01:32 You know we all have our visual style. for that but if There is a highlight you want to share with someone else. You may want to use a different pencil. right?
18:01:41 It’s it’s a different but that but it’s also changing You know we have our hands.
18:01:45 We can do so much with smoothly so we can change how we do something.
18:01:49 That’s one thing, but i’ve noticed especially with games. If you have to press a different button for a different function.
18:01:56 That is actually a huge cognitive load right i’m highlighting.
18:01:58 To make this more special. I press the pen harder that’s Okay, I’m: hardline to make this special I choose a different pen.
18:02:06 That’s actually a ton of work because your main effort is on the reading bits.
18:02:11 Yeah. So So how we can actually, somehow, capture the the different intents of that might be that that might be something that an arbr environment actually can help with because it, maybe you can see more of what we’re doing sorry.
18:02:26 Yeah, Peter, Yeah. Back as an undergrad, I went through a highlighting phase, and I was using 3 different color highlighters with little vertical stripes in the side margin to indicate things and Then start bleeding through
18:02:38 the pages, and by the end of the course I realized I had rendered the text totally unreadable, and I finally gave up on that, and went just to living the Texas completely clean and taking Cornell style notes on a separate piece of
18:02:51 paper. I should also note that i’m breaking out the section from my symposium talk on the Benedictine cyber spaces, and I’m expanding that to a separate discussion which is already at 1,300 words and
18:03:08 growing so we’ll so separate that from the main talk that I actually gave. and it’s time for me to head out with mum now.
18:03:16 So i’ll see you guys on friday take that great point about highlighting.
18:03:22 It reminds me of a sorry. Go ahead! Go ahead, Mark.
18:03:28 Well, I just quick thing I mean I i’m actually from the flight, Peter.
18:03:31 I mean. it took me a while to realize, although I was never encouraged to scroll on books when I was young.
18:03:36 But it but actually i’ve realized that I don’t like now, because it just creates cognitive bloat for me.
18:03:40 I can’t read I can’t read something that’s being scribbled on
18:03:43 Whether I did or somebody else. but I say that but i’m mindful that you know it doesn’t bother me if other people highlights in a different way, and one of the one of the things that got us to where we
18:03:54 are with author, and and and sort of settling on the bolding.
18:04:01 Was that Fred and I had some conversations along the way, because well, we have a different approach to highlighting.
18:04:08 And I thought, what if the thing ends up, you know, with all sorts of stuff all over it?
18:04:12 In fact, the building I think what’s quite well and and there’s also the I think the gray highlighting.
18:04:17 He did so, the point being that it’s useful to be able to show things of relevance without making without making it too intrusive on the reading experience.
18:04:29 We can go and do all sorts of other fancy stuff in other in our view specs with the factory, the metadata that creates.
18:04:38 But in terms of reading experience I think it the having is little.
18:04:41 Mockup of a first point. It’s useful So I like the idea. Okay, here I was Marcos, and you might put a color prompt off to the size.
18:04:51 But probably do the highlights in the same color because although it sounds fancy being said.
18:04:57 Oh, let’s see the blue highlights versus yellow ones!
18:04:59 I think it very quickly can get very messy, and you get lost in the process of what you can do, and you may not necessarily take as much as it cool.
18:05:09 Well, I I I thought a lot about these questions some years ago, when I wrote mapping hypertext and one of the among the the the experiment that I did. You You know most of you have copies of it You know
18:05:27 that, every every double page spread has the key idea in very large print at the top it.
18:05:37 It has What is better shown visually than described in verbal terms done each time.
18:05:47 Maybe I you know I i’d be you know at some point very interested in in reactions.
18:05:53 If you know a half hour critique of the thing, you know.
18:05:59 It was done a long time ago. you know i’m somewhat detached from the whole thing, but I think it was.
18:06:04 It was was one alternative way of
18:06:12 Of addressing the issue. all of the issue. I say all of the issues that have been raised around formatting and summarizing even the table of contents.
18:06:23 I did a whole experiment with the table of content such that you can see a list of all the key ideas at the very beginning and so forth.
18:06:31 So i’d be interested in if if the group was interested in a critique of it at some point probably not today, because I’m gonna have to leave pretty soon there.
18:06:43 I would warrant more than one single talk that That’s a that’s a great great idea of fascinating exercised, too.
18:06:54 So how could we build them? i’m i’m on building on what we’ve been doing?
18:06:59 What people have done in the past. As you know, I I like to build on other.
18:07:04 Yeah, yeah, Oh, from auditor to you know what I?
18:07:08 You know the version that I tried to do some years ago?
18:07:14 Yeah, that that specific point about building. I would be fascinated to to try to take that perspective, Bob on.
18:07:20 Mapping hypertext and and go through it.
18:07:22 Obviously, I don’t have my copy here. in no town but yeah, like one of the things that I think about about highlighting.
18:07:31 Is that a lot of the time when I see other people’s highlights.
18:07:33 I don’t I don’t have a particularly clear sense of what people mean, and what what kinds of shades of meeting they’re throwing the document into how they’re shifting it as a consequence of doing that highlighting and
18:07:45 So one of the things that I like is annotation of some kind.
18:07:51 People being able to actually sort of comment or or or write marginal notes and things like that.
18:07:59 Obviously that’s that can be very distracting if it’s done in a way that that overrides the the Nicole and cardinal meaning of the text.
18:08:09 And so the digital is by default is something that allows her more flexibility in that regard which means that people can layer those things on top of each other.
18:08:17 And i’m i’ve told you about it before but I something that I really enjoyed the premise of succeed in getting a lot of interesting stuff out of the yet.
18:08:27 But you know there’s still time is the photo annotator project that I i’ve produced where you know, have a slide show of photos, and you can collect audio kind of recollections and reflections from
18:08:42 multiple sources. that that live alongside it. And so I I think it would be interesting for a book to have, maybe read a book, and then have audio annotations where you you sort of pause, and then talk about what it
18:08:57 is, you think, in any given moment. And some regard, you know, Youtube is becoming this with reaction videos.
18:09:02 Sometimes people will watch the entire video video play pause and react to it, and in in real time, and that’s an interesting sort of template or model to be able to follow or pursue.
18:09:13 Think about what what kinds of functions we might get out of being able to interpose, not just highlighting sort of the the specification of this is being more important than that but some modality where people are able to it input some of
18:09:29 their own stuff. and yeah, like I said in the chat I I haven’t tried using hypothesis myself in that regard
18:09:38 But it would be perhaps an interesting way of keeping up the layer.
18:09:44 Commentary on top of thanks mean making a text as well as hypertext
18:09:53 Yes, I I think If you have just a highlight you missed a lot of context.
18:09:58 One might not one highlight, because it’s true because it’s wrong, because they have a crazy idea that anybody else might think about so just a highlight without a notation. my great frustration.
18:10:10 But that’s also why the the collaborative aspect might be interesting, because it surfaces what more than one person, because if it’s just a one person, and didn’t as soon as saying maybe you have a cookie different
18:10:22 annotations or highlighting style than everybody else. I took the mic, though, so to do a very brief demo of some of the stuff that was who prefixed since the event.
18:10:41 Oh, since you’re gonna do that can I just mention something really quick about what Brndell said, so we can print proper focus on what you’re saying.
18:10:49 Is that okay? cause you’re gonna do a demo now right Yes, I’m ready.
18:10:56 Okay, just really quickly. One of the major things I noticed as a students trying to do my PHD.
18:11:02 With these reference managers. As you cannot search the text of a Pdf.
18:11:07 Only your own highlights. So that is, of course, in one of the functions we highlight.
18:11:13 We want to be able to search on that first second point.
18:11:16 See how quick I am, Fabian. Second point, annotations as citations meaning, if you annotate something, you should be able to see that as a separate item.
18:11:25 In other words, an academic document is actually an annotation on the previous documented sites.
18:11:30 So that’s why addressing and citation is so important in our world.
18:11:36 Also done, Please, Fabian, i’ve been looking forward to this so let me know, please, if you can see my screen.
18:11:43 Yes, and you can see the voip perspective. Yes, okay.
18:11:48 So I really won’t be able to see of course anything just hear you
18:12:00 So
18:12:05 It’s the same foundations or code as you’ve seen in the past.
18:12:12 But you can see I deleted 80% of it, maybe hit it away.
18:12:22 And the first thing was to also it adjusted the height based on me sitting and not standing up.
18:12:29 But yeah, most of the things i’ve got with little things like this here left to change the 3 objects.
18:12:39 So that that’s one example I can put away.
18:12:45 I can still be used to get my keyboard there that I extended so that I can still time to come in there With this.
18:12:53 Then we can add them here, I think. Okay, So that means who showed me this recording thing about it.
18:13:01 But it. Can you organize the keyboard contract yeah so that my inter key is here, and i’ll have another object.
18:13:10 I can move around. One of the thing I showed also before was the tapping here.
18:13:20 To change this space. it’s not today, apparently and to make it now as a shortcut.
18:13:29 So you fire track and drop the to comment here. Okay, not to. so.
18:13:37 But this morning I could grab, and basically have this command always available to be able to be more efficient.
18:13:48 And for the sequential aspect that what mentioned before.
18:13:55 So again, this was the least of 20 comments before, and now I can have commands and bring other ones to the goal to be Let’s say as sequential as possible, you Have only 4 or 5 coming at the beginning, and then, as
18:14:09 you go through it’s the instruction or the the story let’s say, and you will have, if you one comment showing the other heated the way.
18:14:21 But yes, the ability to to hide most of it.
18:14:23 And surely in the in the right border and and things don’t accessibility, because that was also mentioned during the talk.
18:14:32 So my dominant hands and my secondary hand and say, can be switched. and I don’t know this now.
18:14:39 Works. Okay, so I can have those, maybe can try this again.
18:14:46 I love the little block and the the utility belt aspect of it.
18:14:52 Yeah, absolutely. by the way, Fabian, this is phenomenal, And obviously the demo is horrible because we’re watching it on.
18:15:02 Vr Is it easy, maybe, in the future, to set up a static camera that shows what you’re doing?
18:15:08 You have to start the camera with us? Yes, it would be
18:15:14 It will be because it what it was networked. So basically you could also just join without me sharing my screen.
18:15:20 You will see the the things being done live. I removed it because there was.
18:15:25 Yeah, notice. People would see like a calendar if 2 persons tried to say the demo at once, and in the end that prevented from yeah properly.
18:15:36 But just a question to Bob real quick bob now that you’ve been a little bit nvr what you saw here that Fabian did you got?
18:15:45 A Did you get a better appreciation that he obviously saw rock solid even though we didn’t
18:15:52 Yes, of course there’s improvements from the last time I I I just mean
18:16:02 But and not now that you’ve been in vr a little bit.
18:16:06 You do feel, at least at the world you see nvr it’s not kind of wavy floaty, but it is completely solid, right? so that you can see potential things happening though.
18:16:18 Right. Oh, yes, sure yeah, I you know that’s that’s possible.
18:16:24 Sure right. Yeah, I just think it’s amazing what you’re building Bobby and I just wanna make sure it was seen probably this license. here is buffalo I can’t concentrate.
18:16:37 So sorry a little comment on Why, also that changes Because I gave a demo to kids yesterday.
18:16:46 From 3 years old to 7 or 8 years old, I think.
18:16:51 And it was funny, because first it was not a random demo but some something I’ve done.
18:16:55 They all tried to jump on how to grab the text because they’ll be too high.
18:17:00 But that made me think that this this kind of system, where text or code change the environment, being either visually your music, or however you want in terms of either numeracy or literacy, or as a way to to play by having a
18:17:18 agency, because the impact is images like you you do something and it’s basically like magic into a pedagogy.
18:17:26 Pretty interesting like the the Italian total moving around is it’s kind of listening.
18:17:33 So right now I don’t have a cute I made a kind of cutter.
18:17:36 I hope, environment, so that everybody feels comfortable in it But I think the of doing the day demo at the symposium, ensuring to people who never seen the or before.
18:17:52 And the discussion. accessibility make it more yeah it’s it’s exciting for me for a broader audience, even if that wasn’t the I was the only initial target.
18:18:03 Let’s
18:18:03 Love it. a few, a few comments if I if I may one directly pertaining to that, and then
18:18:13 And then the others. the link that I threw in there.
18:18:16 I I got I updated my oculus and First I’ve had the horrible I felt like Bob here trying to.
18:18:30 I felt completely lost, trying to type in, you know, hand one finger at a time to try and type in the Url to to try out the Vr Demos.
18:18:38 And then, of course, they would like auto suggest or try and auto complete, and it was just a nightmare which I I so want to have a better version of a keyboard in Vr and i’m.
18:18:46 Sure there’s probably a way to sync it to my keyboard. I don’t know about any of that.
18:18:51 Also I couldn’t get any of the demos to actually launch some of them.
18:18:55 I know that like, I believe, with brandles the drop zone.
18:18:58 I i’m sure that there’s an aspect of that where it’s syncing.
18:19:03 You know the that my browser and the oculus in the browser and the desktop, or somehow the same instance.
18:19:10 But I couldn’t figure that part out and then I couldn’t get the other ones to just I mean I saw Bob Horns like map, that you know.
18:19:17 Could be twisted around couldn’t get the other ones to launch, so i’d love to get a
18:19:22 I don’t know even even just a like a github read me of like, Do this, then do this, then do this.
18:19:29 If this fails, do this right, and and then on a separate note, the link that I just threw in there.
18:19:39 I think it’s such an interesting angle and it would be something I would be interested in making, especially with with I mean, this is red.
18:19:48 I feel like in line channeling spirit of of Adam Warren.
18:19:52 If you go to the site, or I can share my screen.
18:19:57 You see this kind of arbitrary prompt of? If you knew me you would love me, and then you have all of these terms.
18:20:04 But you can move the terms up and down to sort of what you you kind of work out in a game like fashion.
18:20:11 How you think this interface works, and so one assumes that you are first off judging the person I under the column, I am by Stack ranking these descriptors, and then you move on through this sentence in a kind of
18:20:29 a weird, mad, live way, but saying all that is be like, I think that would be such an interesting experiment for the material and future of text.
18:20:38 Say like would follows, is not only what I want to read about, and the things I want to read about, but like I’m interested in a compressed version, or i’m interested in a meandering version, or you know a speculative
18:20:51 version in these different sort of attributes. that you normally don’t see in an appendix as a way to result in a very simple place to start with, You know a paragraph but that leads to perhaps
18:21:05 more that that person said, or different paragraphs that are similar.
18:21:11 And you can kind of you know choose your own adventure Anyway, anyways interested in building that I i’m i’m I’m tempted to.
18:21:20 Well, i’ve already started doing a little bit in spell along these lines
18:21:28 Mark, can I ask a practical question, Is that okay?
18:21:32 If I go ahead of you thank you the question is to Brenda, because the issue that Alan had with not being able to view the The Demos is, of course, annoying, and it’s also annoying that We’re not all
18:21:45 in Vr. watching fabulous demo i’m in Norway, that’s my excuse.
18:21:50 But this new Meta thing coming up on the seventh, seventeenth.
18:21:54 I think you wrote What do you know about it? Is it something we should wait and splurge on?
18:22:00 Or should we try to be request to you for a while, because I have a feeling waiting for all of us till January for the apple?
18:22:07 One, or whenever it actually will be released rather than announced, is probably not a good investment in our exchange, so to speak.
18:22:17 We need to be ahead of the pack. and it’s this practical issues made me ask what what advice have you got, Brenda, for?
18:22:28 How we should be ourselves. well, you know, in terms of in terms of having access to hardware. the the the the best one is the one you can get.
18:22:38 That said so So it’s it’s very valuable to be able to do stuff with the quest, too, or or even a class one at this point.
18:22:46 That said it does seem you know very likely that the quest pro will be released on the October on the eleventh of October.
18:22:54 And that’ll be a full caller pass through system making use of a single monoscopic call camera, and reconciling that with a number of external cameras to to be able to kind of paint the world and
18:23:08 so it’ll be sort of plausibly augmented reality and headset.
18:23:14 It. it’s going to be expensive it’s gonna be substantially more than $8,800, which means that it’s likely to be somewhere around a 1,000 to $1,200.
18:23:23 Unfortunately, at this point, that means a 1,000 to £1,200 for people in the Uk, because they are the same.
18:23:29 And yeah it’s it’s gonna be good There’s very likely to be a quest 3 being released around the same time, which would be more of the successor to that lower enterprise range.
18:23:43 And I hopefully it’ll be somewhere around the 3 to $400 range.
18:23:47 But i’m not sure i’m not sure exactly what it does. It’s i’m likely to have color pass through.
18:23:54 That’s likely to be a quest profile I have I have a pretty good authority that Samsung is gonna be releasing an ar vr helmet headset at some point in the in the nearest
18:24:04 future and and it may be worth holding off on that.
18:24:08 No. but the biggest thing for me is that I I don’t have confidence that any company really has what to do with any of these things that that that trick is to to come up with you know to to start with a hardware
18:24:21 platform that’s adequate to be able to make make further demands essentially to the software and the hardware so that it’s relevant to some of the questions that the you know the the the top end hardware and
18:24:33 software manufacturers will be so there’s a having to pursue in the in the for stable feature.
18:24:41 And of course it’s in this community we develop web text or stuff it doesn’t matter which one right it doesn’t matter what’s one insofar as that they all run webex are some of them are
18:24:54 gonna be better than others. So if you have a a question pro hopefully, it’ll be more powerful than a quest.
18:25:00 You can plug a quest a request to request one, then to a Pc.
18:25:06 Unfortunately, at this point not a Mac and then get the Pc.
18:25:11 To power it, which is pretty cool but you don’t get the benefit of hands.
18:25:15 So there are, you know there are trade-offs in terms of that.
18:25:17 Protocol typing platforms, but it is a lot more powerful. Use a desktop Pc.
18:25:23 For your Vr. and you get the whole kit and capabilities there.
18:25:30 Oh, you can pair of bluetooth keyword, and even have it overlaid.
18:25:39 So when you see a keyboard in Vr, it is your physical keyboard.
18:25:43 I I did that once. I mean webex what’s that in webex.
18:25:50 So you don’t have the best true so you’ve seen the Os, but not in the experience itself.
18:25:59 But to be to be fair. So there’s the bluetooth keyboard to quickly go on this definitely works.
18:26:03 It’s definitely so much more better than anything like clicking everything, except if you have a relevant context for it.
18:26:12 It’s also not perfect it’s like a millimeter or 2 off.
18:26:14 Ensure that find mediology with a keyboard you have.
18:26:16 If you actually look, I find it not that helpful so so to look at who it is.
18:26:20 If you’re not that’s a used to touch typing or positioning it?
18:26:25 Yeah, it’s it’s also not magic but it’s definitely worth.
18:26:27 Yeah, plenty of interesting things. we to play with it.
18:26:31 And just the demo was showing is keyboard compatible so that you don’t have to pinch if you do have
18:26:45 Yeah, i’m i’m unfortunately, running at a time but mark that was a practical question that went on forever.
18:26:49 I’m reading really sorry it’s all right I mean I was just quit going to, and check that I don’t think it’s the case that reference man just can’t summarize annotations and I think
18:27:01 they can, I put in the side. But I think the problem actually is not is not sort of.
18:27:07 Don’t developers. it’s actually the pdfs pretty messy inside.
18:27:10 You can put any old crap inside the wrapper and different different systems.
18:27:16 Basically put things they call annotations in the and the porbinited developer has to fish around in the soup for cool.
18:27:23 We as a user know to be the annotations you know it’s It’s a little more complicated.
18:27:28 I And the other thing is, it may be that the feature doesn’t exist across all annotation resource managers, because, for one or 2 reasons, some people don’t read some people use reference managers to store
18:27:44 references, so they didn’t read that pdfs they didn’t. that’s not what they that’s not what they keep their reference needs yeah no i’m just stressing because I have to
18:27:56 go on 3 min, but that that is an important discussion, especially between you and me.
18:28:00 Mark i’ll be on anything else for the time we have together.
18:28:05 I’ll leave the meeting room open obviously but yeah i’ll have to go to. So it’s going to take me less than a minute. it was great at the symposium to do face to face demo But now the symposium is not
18:28:19 there and we might have it’s a 6 month before we see each other.
18:28:24 But I still want to do demo so i’m working specifically on the remote demo.
18:28:26 I’ll make Alan if it’s useful for you like say 3 min.
18:28:31 Video on how to set up webex, or how to go from a link on the desktop to having it in the headset.
18:28:36 And then eventually I have a couple of themos plan with a with others on on the experience I’ve shown.
18:28:43 But then, if some of you also want to try it and I can be there for a bit of hand holding and get your feedback, i’ll be up for them slowly gearing up to do more of that.
18:28:52 I would really like it far beyond, if you did that but also, if you wrote it down. So we can put it in our book, because, even though this technical advice will only be relevant for a few months, it’ll probably change with new
18:29:04 headsets. It is an indication of the State to the art today which will have significance in the future.
18:29:12 When people want to compare right. i’ll put it right next to like, how you used to crank a a car to get it started, or how to hold your pen.
18:29:24 That’s an article from medieval time yeah no I mean this is also partly why mark is doing the article on on on image maps, because it’s but it’s a useful concept but the way it’s
18:29:36 done now is pretty hooky so yeah no that’s good should we, or or let’s see
18:29:46 I’m just wondering maybe, Jim, if we can plan that you and Bob are together on Friday.
18:29:51 Maybe, or Monday, so that we can maybe try to. All of us be in headsets for a Fabian walkthrough.
18:29:58 No, no, that’s Why? I’m. saying that I I will I don’t wanna do this because I don’t i’m not ready to scale one of you failing at a time is more than enough to keep me Dc.
18:30:08 Not because we will fill, but still ironing out all the kings.
18:30:11 You just saw the demo. I showed you the pinch as a book marketing network.
18:30:16 It worked just hours ago. I changed something I started I i’m not I i’d love to, but touch it alright.
18:30:26 Well, that tha that’s fine but let’s yeah we we got it.
18:30:28 We got to do more time in Vr. but we and how did we agree?
18:30:36 That are 2. Our Our key thing now is working on, making our quote unquote content.
18:30:44 More useful to people, and we are another vr But also how that then works with the notion of personal knowledge. management. right?
18:30:54 Is that what we’re looking at it seems quite simple I think the personal knowledge, management portion is an an entirely different conversation that is worth like?
18:31:04 I I think more progress could be made by focusing on on one of them how to make the the content more useful, and that will naturally float into that second one.
18:31:14 But that second one Oh, my goodness, that can go in so many different directions!
18:31:20 I mean it’s I agree that it’s a goal but I don’t.
18:31:20 I I think it’s a a cascading goal from the first.
18:31:25 I said, you have to go, Brendan. Yeah.
18:31:27 Good luck i’ll talk to you later I gotta go in a minute, too.
18:31:33 Alan, I I agree with you on a pragmatic level, but on a design level, I think, because of what you said leads into is kind of important.
18:31:43 So if we to provide a way to view this we should at the same time think about so.
18:31:48 What other than the experience of watching it live so what How does it fit into the person’s digital life.
18:31:56 That’s Why, i’m thinking you know whether it’s a citation whether it’s an annotation whether it’s a link, whether it’s a highlight whether it’s tearing something up what is the kind
18:32:07 of knowledge management. we’d like it to go into what kind of an allergy situation or relationship.
18:32:12 Would we like to be moving about if I were the product manager of this?
18:32:18 One of the exercises i’d have us run through is and I think Bob would agree with this, too, is like we need to get some hypothesis of the kinds of users right because there’s only one kind
18:32:29 of user. In that case that happens to rely on or use pkms.
18:32:34 There are other kinds of users that are just very minimally interested in what you know, what is future of text, What even is this mean?
18:32:42 Right there, and and and I think I have to go i’m gonna rent her up to because I agree with you.
18:32:50 Okay, and but my proposal is maybe on Friday we start having a session.
18:32:56 You are the product manager for this, and you go through exactly that, because, having a recorded discussion on who we expect to read our work is probably very, very useful.
18:33:07 Does that everyone feel that makes sense? Yes, and just before you go everything I’ve shown.
18:33:12 Rely on my pkm so it’s not disconnected from from the small demos.
18:33:18 I’ve shown everything is pulled in and now and back in a wiki.
18:33:21 It’s obviously what everybody uses but at least as a as one example of for me it’s completely coherent.
18:33:29 That’s that’s perfect and alan are you okay with that.
18:33:35 Yes, I I should be available on friday I’ll have to check, cause I do have 2 friends in town.
18:33:43 I have to see if anything’s overlapping there but it should be fine fantastic.
18:33:49 Okay, gotta go don’t wanna be late for the doctor. Thank you guys. i’ll keep the meeting going. if you are.

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